i don't think anyone disputes Greece being the "cradle", "fount", "beginning" of "western civlization". the point is its relationship to Egypt and Semetic tribes being systematically and almost completely denied by Eurocentric and Racist historians since the 1800s. a relationship much like the one of Japan to China: there were innovations, yes, but as a whole the young culture is largely derivative of, indebted to, and massively influenced by the older civlizations.
Deeper Roots
- Thread starter zhao
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i don't think anyone disputes Greece being the "cradle", "fount", "beginning" of "western civlization". the point is its relationship to Egypt and Semetic tribes being systematically and almost completely denied by Eurocentric and Racist historians since the 1800s. a relationship much like the one of Japan to China: there were innovations, yes, but as a whole the young culture is largely derivative of, indebted to, and massively influenced by the older civlizations.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
About the only actual history I've really read on the origins of greek culture is a not-particularly-radical history of greek science from some time in the late 50s / early sixities. And iirc that talks about greek science as an extension of phonecian and egyptian science without suggesting that this statement is anything controversial.
I've always pretty much assumed that what you're saying was the case, tbh, and if I've ever heard anyone else talking about it I'd assume that that's what they must have said. Where else was greek culture supposed to have come from? Random celts in forests? If the african / semetic roots are being so comprehensively, er, whitewashed, why can't I even think of anyone having told me an alternative explanation?
I've always pretty much assumed that what you're saying was the case, tbh, and if I've ever heard anyone else talking about it I'd assume that that's what they must have said. Where else was greek culture supposed to have come from? Random celts in forests? If the african / semetic roots are being so comprehensively, er, whitewashed, why can't I even think of anyone having told me an alternative explanation?
regardless of what text books you read at the schools you went to, the image of Classical Greek culture in the popular imagination, the idea of Greece held by the general population, is ABSOLUTELY a white and european one, of european origins, and not having much if anything to do with Africa or Asia.
if anyone did a poll on the streets of the city where they live, and asked: did Greek culture come from Africa? much more than half will say "no". probably 80% and above. (a lot of people don't even think Egyptians were black!)
your denying of the existence of a world view shaped by systematic, pandemic racism is problematic and suspect.
like i have been saying, you are a thoughtful, curious person of above average education (whether by schooling or on your own), and do not represent the general public.
do you disagree with this assessment?
STN
sou'wester
and we all appreciate your dirty durtee nasty filthy mind Lichen
what about classical greek civilization? from your education do you have a picture of it largely deriving from older African and Semitic civilizations, or mostly white european?
What white European culture is it ever purported to have emerged from? Etruscans (I don't believe so; they are always presented as unpleasant forbears of the Romans).
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well they weren't - not compared to blacks from sub-Saharan Africa, anyway. They were brown-skinned like modern Egyptians are: fairer than southern Africans, darker than Europeans or Mesopotamians.
In fact Egyptians are often depicted in their own tomb paintings and so on as looking quite different from, say, Nubians:
A Libyan, Nubian, Syrian and Egyptian, respectively.
In any case, the notion of distinct, discrete races has been discarded, hasn't it? Egyptians, then as now, are intermediate in appearance between black Africans and light-skinned Semetic people. There's no reason they have to belong exclusively to one group rather than the other.
Clearly they didn't (and don't) look much like Elizabeth Taylor, however.
luka
Well-known member
why are you trying to ascribe sinister motives to me?
i don't understand.
i was pointing out that we live in the 21st century, not the 19th. the things you are saying are not as controversial as you are making out. a lot of it is accepted, mainstream history. that is all. although it does remind me of the book i was browsing in this morning, (and thoroughly enjoying)
ATLANTIS
by ignatius donnely
plenty of dodgy racial stuff in there though
i don't understand.
i was pointing out that we live in the 21st century, not the 19th. the things you are saying are not as controversial as you are making out. a lot of it is accepted, mainstream history. that is all. although it does remind me of the book i was browsing in this morning, (and thoroughly enjoying)
ATLANTIS
by ignatius donnely
plenty of dodgy racial stuff in there though
not an attempt to ascribe, rather to understand, because i am confused as to why someone would willfully and dramatically downplay clearly ubiquitous and commonly accepted world views propagated by racist ideology.
you think what we believe in the 21st can not be massively influenced, or indeed still largely based on, thinking which went on and things which took place in the 19th? especially when these thoughts and things include fundamental historical revision and sweeping academic and educational reform?
if you do you are wrong. in many respects, philosophically, politically, even scientifically, the origins of a lot of our "modern" commonly accepted beliefs can be traced to the 19th century and earlier and much earlier.
it often takes a loooooooooooong ass time for scholarly findings to reverse popular beliefs.
^^^ and you are making false statements grossly distorting reality. that is all.
go outside. ask the first 10 people you meet on the street: "did Greek culture mostly come from Africa?" and see what kind of answers you get.
do it.
what most people might agree on is "some influence", but not the mother-child relationship between the Egypt and Greece.
just look at the 2.5 and 2 stars out of 5 and the comments that the first 2 volumes of Black Athena gets on Amazon.
and not only the "general population", even in academic specialist circles, look at the vehement attacks on Black Athena from reputable scholars since it came out.
"accepted, mainstream history"? not even close.
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if you can't defend your own statements why do you make them?
you said i "dramatically overstate", and now that i have put up a proper argument for that not being the case, you are just going to cowardly refuse to engage, with personal attacks on my character?
what the fuck luka? why are you acting like this when we both know you are capable of better?
luka
Well-known member
i've said all i had to say and you have willfully misinterpreted as being, presumably, a personal attack. i fail to see how repeating myself ad nauseum is going to do anyone any good.
incidently if i walk onto the street and ask the first 100 people i meet about the origins of greek culture, at least 50 of them will be chinese or aborigine and will say, what the fuck are you talking about luke you fucking weirdo.
incidently if i walk onto the street and ask the first 100 people i meet about the origins of greek culture, at least 50 of them will be chinese or aborigine and will say, what the fuck are you talking about luke you fucking weirdo.
the very little you have said in this thread is wrong, and you can not back it up. if you think that's enough i guess it's enough!
i did see "standard zhao preening" as a remark about my personal character. how should i have interpreted it? as stream of consciousness cut-up dream poetry?
luka
Well-known member
hahah yeah i know i shouldn't get on my high horse, it doesn't suit me. i love making personal attacks, im not in the debating society. i don't care about those rules.
we don't disagree anyway.
what claim do you think i am making?
make it again for me in a single sentence.
we don't disagree anyway.
what claim do you think i am making?
make it again for me in a single sentence.