What is Manga?

[zhao]

Dear god Zhao, cop yourself on - and then produce a scintilla of credible evidence to back up your claims.

don't have much time to produce "proof" of intense racism against Chinese in Japan, or the downplay of Chinese influence on Japanese culture.

but the former wouldn't really exist if the debt in every aspect of culture was widely acknowledged, and there existed respect which would natually follow, now would it?

and for one thing where did you get the idea that frying Gyoza is a Japanese thing? japanese Manga?

 

[droid]

don't have much time to produce "proof" of intense racism against Chinese in Japan, or the downplay of Chinese influence on Japanese culture.

The first is obvious. The onus is on you to produce the 2nd as you have claimed it is widespread beyond Japan. I don't think this is really the case.

and for one thing where did you get the idea that frying Gyoza is a Japanese thing? japanese Manga?

Now theres a flimsy attempt to prove the downplay of Chinese cultural influence on Japan if ever I saw one!

From eating in Japanese and Chinese restaurants. The former usually fry and the latter usually boil or steam. I already mentioned that my opinion was based on little more.

 

[zhao]

The first is obvious. The onus is on you to produce the 2nd as you have claimed it is widespread beyond Japan. I don't think this is really the case.

i actually said WITHIN japan, but my case is actually easier to prove if you extend the downplay of Chinese and other Asian influence on Japan to the world at large.

most people do not know that Sushi comes from Thailand.

most people do not know that Zen Buddhism did not originate in Japan.

etc. etc.

it's funny we are having this discussion in 2 threads. i won't repeat my respect for much of Japanese culture here...

 

[nomadthethird]

Am I the only one who finds the sexier manga stultifyingly creepy? Especially the rape ones, obvs.

I'm usually the first to laud extreme fetishism but there's something that I find mildly disturbing about the fact that this stuff breeds hikikimori, who spend all day looking at drawings of naked superheroines and playing video games alone in their rooms, like crazy.

We don't really have those problems over here. We have other problems that are just as bad, granted.

 

[four_five_one]

I'm usually the first to laud extreme fetishism but there's something that I find mildly disturbing about the fact that this stuff breeds hikikimori, who spend all day looking at drawings of naked superheroines and playing video games alone in their rooms, like crazy.

Here's an extract from an article I found a while ago on otaku culture:

"In most cases these manga are hybrids or genre mutations of given commercial models. They show an attitude of joyful 'playgiarism' that does not even strive to be original. The only really 'original' aspect about them is that in contradistinction to the the ones you buy in the convenience store otaku manga contain uncensored depictions of primary sexual organs. In a country where every single pubic hair intended for publication in film or print, has to be covered up or sandpapered out the fact that these manga show it all is almost revolutionary.

We can safely assume that a large part of the sex-life of otaku is represented by comic figures in manga, animation and video games. Sex to them is nothing physical but medial. They don't have lovers, in part because they are afraid of each other and find 2-D satisfaction much safer. In that sense the guy from Steven Soderbergh's "Sex, Lies and Videotape" can be thought of as the Western correlate to the post-sexual otaku. Yamazaki offers another explanation: 2-d sex is a reaction to the pressure of male chauvinism. Boys refuse to grow up to become the regular mucho. They don't like to be aggressive. True, in the comics there is a lot of violence, SM, lashing, and bondage, but in the real world they could not do it - they're too shy. "

 

[Tentative Andy]

I absolutely cannot understand how people can find tentacle porn sexy.
(Not that I'm suggesting that it's in any way representative of manga as a whole, of course, even porn-wise. But it's just such a phenomena to me).

 

[zhao]

how is octopus sex not sexy?

i suppose it depends on if you find tongues entwined around each other sexy. or if you find vaginas sexy. or if you find going down on girls sexy.

wet glistening gyrating writhing pussy lips everywhere... you are surrounded by them... lost in them.

or alternately imagine your entire body consists of a dozen or more giant cocks, all of them agile and flexible, and with them you can satisfy your girlfriend in a hundred previously impossible ways.

 

[nomadthethird]

That article was really interesting, thnx 451.

Tentacle porn and the appeal of it is really complicated, at least from an outsider's perspective (it's not really a thing where I come from). I started thinking about it and didn't stop for a long time after I read these two posts. But really, if I had to simplify it, I'd guess that it's less about the tentacles standing in for human genitalia and more about how difficult it is to localize female sexuality (which has always been represented and believed to be less genital than male sexuality in the majority of cultures I can think of), and so it's difficult for a male to stimulate the diffuse erogenous zones that females have with only two hands. So the octopus can do it for him, like Zhao says. And he can watch. I'm not a voyeur so I can't really speak to why the watching or the visual representation is important.

But yeah there's that old "women=the sea" and also texture of octopus=female genital tissues thing.

(Actually, I love calamari and had some really good 7-day marinated grilled octopus at a chi-chi Greek restaurant once.)

 

[scottdisco]

how is octopus sex not sexy?

i suppose it depends on if you find tongues entwined around each other sexy. or if you find vaginas sexy. or if you find going down on girls sexy.

wet glistening gyrating writhing pussy lips everywhere... you are surrounded by them... lost in them.

or alternately imagine your entire body consists of a dozen or more giant cocks, all of them agile and flexible, and with them you can satisfy your girlfriend in a hundred previously impossible ways.

i saw quite an extreme example of octopus porn once in Toronto courtesy of some hot Aussie chick and fine young Englishman i was with and whilst your characterisation of the above can't fail to be incredibly alluring, i am afraid the thing i saw was not quite as nice.

still, i appreciate, just one example from my pov

Nomad's nice Greek joint sounds tip-top!

"and so it's difficult for a male to stimulate the diffuse erogenous zones that females have with only two hands. So the octopus can do it for him, like Zhao says."

yup

 

[empty mirror]

speaking of otaku sexuality

there's a phenomenon over at 4chan of animated gifs of figurines of manga/anime heroines being ejaculated upon by (a trick of perspective) giant otaku penises

forgive my circuitous grammar
dinner's on! (not calamari [or oysters] sadly)

 

[zhao]

it's difficult for a male to stimulate the diffuse erogenous zones that females have with only two hands. So the octopus can do it for him, like Zhao says. And he can watch. I'm not a voyeur so I can't really speak to why the watching or the visual representation is important.

i don't think octopus sex has anything inherently to do with voyeurism. the visual representation is just to get the idea across innit?

for me octopus as sexual ideal is about becoming multiple, becoming flexible, becoming organic, becoming sensuality itself. immersing oneself in nature... becoming aware of every inch of your and your lover's body as erotic, and realizing their sexual potential. surround sound sex.

less rigid, less singular, less phallocentric, less genital-centric, less egocentric.

 

[droid]

Is there are contractual obligation to mention tentacles when discussing manga? It would be like if every discussion about Western film ended up on the topic of porn.

Just another example of racist cultural stereotyping and orientalism I guess...

 

[mms]

Is there are contractual obligation to mention tentacles when discussing manga? It would be like if every discussion about Western film ended up on the topic of porn.

Just another example of racist cultural stereotyping and orientalism I guess...

true that, i've read quite alot of manga in my time but i've never actually seen any tentacle porn ever.

 

[droid]

I was joking about the racism bit, but yeah, porn makes up quite a small % of actual manga sales. The fan art end of things is tiny compared to the mainstream industries.

Also, to state the obvious - tentacle porn was not created because Octopi are considered sexy in some way, its just a way to get round the censorship. You can't show an erect penis, but you can show penetration with a tentacle (as long as there's no pubic hair).

 

[zhao]

tentacle porn was not created because Octopi are considered sexy in some way, its just a way to get round the censorship. You can't show an erect penis, but you can show penetration with a tentacle (as long as there's no pubic hair).

but its significance is much more than that. because it's a very old tradition: depiction of octopus sex in art in Japan (and i don't know where else).

 

[droid]

Its not very old at all. it dates back to the early 1800's. Shunga actually constituted only a small part of Ukiyo-e, and fetish Shunga an even smaller part. There are probably only a handful of examples of 'tentacle' prints, the most famous being the Houkasi - so whilst there is a rich tradition of Japanese erotica, there wasn't a tradition of tentacle porn, there were a few isolated works.

The creator of Urotsukidoji (probably the first tentacle porn manga of the modern era) explicitly claimed that tentacles were simply a way to get around censorship.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

but its significance is much more than that. because it's a very old tradition: depiction of octopus sex in art in Japan (and i don't know where else).

so the Chinese created all Japanese art/language/culture etc except the octopus porn? that one was the Japanese, was it? no, settle down, I'm kidding (mostly). Tho I do like this Zhao variant on the "everything came from Africa" theme.

martial arts dudes are always having this fight. "Karate sucks", "we're better at grappling arts", "our sword arts are better than yours" as well as who invented what. usually the answer is like what Droid is saying - at some very basic level most things came from China (excepting stuff like Karate, which is indigenous Okinawan) but the Japanese have, over a long period of time & relevant to their own circumstances, taken that raw material & made it into something totally their own.

 

[zhao]

who came up with shit first and who copied it would not be much of an issue with me at all if the Japanese weren't so racist against Chinese, and didn't look down on us so much just because China has not been doing so well past few hundred years. (however i've heard it's gotten better in recent years, even Chinese people considered "hip" in Japanese hipster circles)

and i don't mean to drag the other thing up here, but it's the same with Europe/Africa/Jews -- if there wasn't so much condescension and racism i would not talk about the roots of "western" culture being from Africa and Asia so much.

also the false image and information propagated by these young cultures: Sushi bing a Japanese invention, women's rights being a completely western idea, etc, etc, etc.

 

[3 Body No Problem]

THE Japanese weren't so racist against Chinese, and didn't look down on US

these young culture

!!!

 

[vimothy]

You can't show an erect penis, but you can show penetration with a tentacle.

67 of these so far this year, eh? You'll go blind, you know!