Pointless But It Does My Head In
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
The conference culture - endless discussion of the same issues, without actually doing anything about them, and charging people £100+ to take part in the charade.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
On the other hand, it's understandable that people are frustrated with the way it's rapidly becoming impossible to say practically anything in public about religion or religious culture without being accused, by someone or other, of 'racism'. Even Christians are starting to get wise to this, and they're only doing what Muslim groups have been doing for years. Which precisely mirrors the way Zionists and the Jewish lobby in general use "antisemitism" as a stick to beat anyone who has anything not entirely supportive to say about Israel.
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Sectionfive
bandwagon house
you only get accused if you say racists things
Sectionfive
bandwagon house
They have applied 100 percent corporate efficiency to rock ’n’ roll. It’s so cool to see.”
not even the worst line
not even the worst line
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't think that's true. The accusation carries such opprobrium that it can be used simply to censor an ideological opponent. Or simply to try and dodge the blame for something.
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
think there's two issues here. first, plainly racist attacks (of the type Slothrop was referring to), and secondly attacks on religion which are evaded by the suggestion that they carry racist overtones (which of course may or may not be true, depending upon the circs, but certainly is sometimes not true, and the attack is strictly upon religious issues).
And then, yes, thirdly, there's N-Dubz. But without getting into the details of that case, it's certainly true that non-white people being silenced when they allege racism that actually has occurred, is far wider a problem than people 'hiding behind' accusations of racism. And, leaving rights or wrongs aside for a minute, the latter would never happen/be an issue were it not for the extraordinary prevalence of the former.
Also, without getting into the truth of anyone's account in that N-Dubz case (the article seems incomplete, and naturally doesn't present the evidence in full), it is quite possible (and I would argue in this case, extremely likely) for the two following to both be true: (i) the N-Dubz guy did sexually molest this girl; and (ii) there was racial stereotyping in the court room, quite apart from the facts of the case. I.e. yes, he deserved to be convicted, but the decision of the jury was made more quickly than it should have been/for the wrong reasons, based on the preconceptions held by some of its members, preconceptions that are extremely common in the UK. Which would make what he said afterwards both an excuse and also a reflection of a truth (just not the truth that he was alleging, that he was innocent of molesting the girl).
And then, yes, thirdly, there's N-Dubz. But without getting into the details of that case, it's certainly true that non-white people being silenced when they allege racism that actually has occurred, is far wider a problem than people 'hiding behind' accusations of racism. And, leaving rights or wrongs aside for a minute, the latter would never happen/be an issue were it not for the extraordinary prevalence of the former.
Also, without getting into the truth of anyone's account in that N-Dubz case (the article seems incomplete, and naturally doesn't present the evidence in full), it is quite possible (and I would argue in this case, extremely likely) for the two following to both be true: (i) the N-Dubz guy did sexually molest this girl; and (ii) there was racial stereotyping in the court room, quite apart from the facts of the case. I.e. yes, he deserved to be convicted, but the decision of the jury was made more quickly than it should have been/for the wrong reasons, based on the preconceptions held by some of its members, preconceptions that are extremely common in the UK. Which would make what he said afterwards both an excuse and also a reflection of a truth (just not the truth that he was alleging, that he was innocent of molesting the girl).
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well obviously for a white man to call a black man a "black cunt" is pretty much dictionary-definition racism and anyone who would seek to quibble with that is defending racism, but that's not what I'm talking about. For a white non-Muslim to say "All Muslims are terrorists and child-molesters" might not be racist in the strictest possible sense, since it is true that Islam is not a 'race' in any usually accepted definition of the term, but it's an example of religious bigotry that is intimately linked to racism and overlaps with it a great deal, since most Muslims aren't white. Though that's not to say it would be any more acceptable coming from a brown-skinned Hindu, for example.
I'm talking about the kind of censorship whereby attempts to talk about social issues that are specific to certain ethnic or religious groups are shot down with accusations of "racism" or "Islamophobia" or whatever. Or on an international scale, the way Israel loves to accuse any country critical of its policies of "antisemitism".
I'm talking about the kind of censorship whereby attempts to talk about social issues that are specific to certain ethnic or religious groups are shot down with accusations of "racism" or "Islamophobia" or whatever. Or on an international scale, the way Israel loves to accuse any country critical of its policies of "antisemitism".
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
I agree with what you're broadly saying re religion, but adding the N-Dubz case muddies the water here, since it's a different issue.
It's still a very difficult area though, as sometimes the criticism of social issues specific ethnic or religious groups, is made in the name of principles of 'liberalism' etc, but is coming from somewhere completely different and less noble. I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. The core of the issue, as I kind of said in a convoluted way above, is that the base problem is that we live in a deeply racialised society/world. The issue of people using that to evade responsibility/shut down debate is very definitely a second-order problem stemming from this first, seemingly intractable one.
It's still a very difficult area though, as sometimes the criticism of social issues specific ethnic or religious groups, is made in the name of principles of 'liberalism' etc, but is coming from somewhere completely different and less noble. I think you have to take it on a case by case basis. The core of the issue, as I kind of said in a convoluted way above, is that the base problem is that we live in a deeply racialised society/world. The issue of people using that to evade responsibility/shut down debate is very definitely a second-order problem stemming from this first, seemingly intractable one.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well yes, agreed. But baseless accusations of racism have the effect of trivializing the concept, which makes it harder for real cases to be taken seriously.
Well who knows? Impossible to say on the basis of one short Beeb article. Of course it would be daft to say race is never a factor in conviction or sentencing.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
I agree re trivialising the issue, but I think that it's white society/the media in particular that is the main driver of the trivialisation of racism, by concentrating on incidents of relatively minor racism (not that they shouldn't do this per se, of course) while ignoring the deeper structural racism at all costs (which would involve having to make changes that people are not willing to make). Or refusing to understand subtleties. To put the main burden of trivialising racism upon non-white people is itself problematic - these are very rare cases indeed, whereas the white-owned media is trivialising racism on a daily basis in all kinds of ways (as well as trivialising sexism, class divides etc etc, of course, treating them all as just pretty much innate facts that we must struggle against but, at the end of the day, are just unfortunate facts of life, y'know. As they do with the bloody fucking 'deficit', of course!).
yeah, without knowing the case, impossible to say. But yes, if white people are making a judgement upon a black person's guilt, race is always a factor that one must analyse.
yeah, without knowing the case, impossible to say. But yes, if white people are making a judgement upon a black person's guilt, race is always a factor that one must analyse.
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Slothrop
Tight but Polite
The specific case I had in mind was a story on a local news website about some twat who got drunk in a nightclub and started fighting. When the police stepped in, he started fighting them and calling one of them (who is of non-British origin) a "fucking foreigner". He subsequently got busted for racially aggravated assault.
Most of the comments on the story were people complaining that it's not racism because
a) "foreign" isn't a race and
b) the policeman in question is, in fact, foreign, so "fucking foreigner" is just a disinterested statement of fact.
I know that people who comment on local news websites are only about half a grade above youtube commentors, but it's still depressing...
Most of the comments on the story were people complaining that it's not racism because
a) "foreign" isn't a race and
b) the policeman in question is, in fact, foreign, so "fucking foreigner" is just a disinterested statement of fact.
I know that people who comment on local news websites are only about half a grade above youtube commentors, but it's still depressing...
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Well yeah, it's motivated by prejudice, although if that policeman were to be a white American for example (obviously I don't know where he hailed from), then surely xenophobia exists as a word for a reason?
As a white British person, I've been called a fucking foreigner before, but it's incomparable to a sleight based upon actual perceived racial difference/inferiority,and to claim otherwise would be entirely disingenuous. To call my being called a fucking foreigner by a French person in Paris and then hit (admittedly this last part has not happened to me in conjunction with the first part), "racially-aggravated assault", would be ridiculous and a bit dubious to me. I'd be very shaken and annoyed, but I'd settle for 'assault'. Again, it all depends upon (real and perceived) power relations.
I think assessment of the case depends upon knowing exactly how the policeman was perceived.
As a white British person, I've been called a fucking foreigner before, but it's incomparable to a sleight based upon actual perceived racial difference/inferiority,and to claim otherwise would be entirely disingenuous. To call my being called a fucking foreigner by a French person in Paris and then hit (admittedly this last part has not happened to me in conjunction with the first part), "racially-aggravated assault", would be ridiculous and a bit dubious to me. I'd be very shaken and annoyed, but I'd settle for 'assault'. Again, it all depends upon (real and perceived) power relations.
I think assessment of the case depends upon knowing exactly how the policeman was perceived.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
don't get me started on this....
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Indeed to a), but b) is totally contingent on the situation. If you don't distinguish the two you do get into one of those situations where racism risks becoming trivialised.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, it hacks me off when people talk about "racism" in the context of English people making jokes about the Scots being tight-fisted or Welsh people being dicks to English tourists or whatever. Call it nationalism, regionalism, parochialism or whatever, but to describe it as basically the same social problem faced by a Pakistani family who get dogshit through their letterbox or a black guy who can't walk out of his front door without being stopped by the old bill is ridiculous.
That's not to say there haven't been serious conflicts between different national or ethnic groups among the white population in the UK over the centuries, but even in Northern Ireland, it's hardly as if the Catholic and Protestant communities are distinct "racial" entities.
That's not to say there haven't been serious conflicts between different national or ethnic groups among the white population in the UK over the centuries, but even in Northern Ireland, it's hardly as if the Catholic and Protestant communities are distinct "racial" entities.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Erm, at what point exactly does an ethnic group qualify as a "race"?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well, one starting point might be when a person can be identified as belonging to a different ethnic group based simply on their physical appearance.