thirdform

pass the sick bucket
A key question is what exactly does jhp mean by quality. To my mind it's ambigious

I would say a differentiation of degree or event. which is rooted in numeracy as such. the quantitative to qualitative transformation. a history of accumulation constantly revolving (in the mathematical sense) condensing new changes or new parameters.

A mathematical revolution not a poolitical one.

I haven't read the text so take as you will. I plan to read it once I finish this sohn-rethel book.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I work on the assumption that both number word and imageare preceded by a more basic information unit. that those info-units
are translated into number/word/image and something is lost in the process
that word is impure from the start that number is inaccurate from the start
because something is lost in the transition

I mean I do wonder about this. It seems impossible to really work with any assumption that presupposes nothingness, not the nothingness of the universe, that's very easy, I mean, pure nonexistence. not even death, actual nothingness. we can't comprehend it. in terms of my views on theology I think this is where I am at the moment. it seems to me that the new atheist position just shifts the conception of god to the molecular explosion of the big bang. that's unsatisfactory to say the least. Now I'm not saying a personal God (as big boss in the sky) exists in the sense of a being from on high, but equally I would very much like to know how the conception of the absolute can ever be thought in its totality, if such a thing is even possible. the illist and the baddest anal al-haq.

I used to know a tgirl called Jules, very smart about Hegel, very knowledgeable about such things, far more than my dilettantish mind. we had a bit of a falling out but recently made up. I suppose in a few months I may have the opportunity to pose the question to her, insofar as the conclusion she's come to. I don't think there's really more of a conclusion. Ultimately it seems, at least in practice to be an anti-political orientation of class. you either succumb to the residues of feudal harmony, there was a being before the universe, or you can be post-Spinozan i guess. not that god reveals himself through nature, not that God is pantheistic, but God is literally the abstraction of being. this is getting into pre-commodity stuff and I'm really not as qualified to chat more. I kind of wish someone like powtix would chip in, maybe even Eden.

I'll see if my friend Anja has any ideas.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Number isn't a quality like eg tensile strength/ductility/lustre

Well this is what the sohn-rethel book argues, that the mental abstraction is inherent in the knowledge of cellular commodity, insofar as you are right, number in and of itself cannot be considered quality or qualitative. ultimately number as an isolated datum is pure thought, and yet number does possess a history in tool making. hence i prefer to talk about accumulation.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
“But when the most advanced Eastern tribes, at the commencement of the middle period of barbarism, had domesticated animals giving meat and milk, without a knowledge of the cereals, their condition [was] much superior to that of the American aborigenes with maize and plants, but without domesticated animals. With the domestication of animals appears differentiation of Shemite and Aryan families out from the mass of barbarians from which they started. That the discovery and cultivation of cereals by the Aryan family was later than the domestication of animals is proved by common terms for animals in the several dialects of Aryan language, and no common terms for cereals or cultivated plants... Horticulture preceded field culture, as the garden the field: the latter signifies boundaries, the former signifies directly an inclosed field [hortus: an inclosed place for plants, hence a garden; from the same root cohors (also cors, in some manuscripts chors): a yard, a place walled round, a court, (also cattle-yard); compare Greek koros, kortos; Latin hortus; German garten; English garden, yard; Italian corte; French cour; English court; Italian giardino; Spanish and French jardin]”

This entire passage feels relevant for the exegesis of the Torah. Its account of man starts not as partially tree-dwelling and subsisting on vegetation, but in a gan, an enclosed and intentionally cultivated garden. Man does not name the plants, but the animals, and any name we gave them, that would be its name (ie, recognised across cultures). The narrative of the entire Torah also has an implicit value-set running through it of nomadic-pastoralism over sedentary-agriculture and city-dwelling, which is later seemingly reconciled in its account of the settlement of eretz-K'na'an by the Israelites, their political constitution and the accounts in Sefer Shoftim. Probably evidence of later strata, dating to a time when nomadic-pastoralism by itself was seen as unfeasible. The sacrifice of the “choice” or ”first”/”head” of the flock is also a central metaphor in all books of the Tanakh.


interestingly, in islam, Adam is taught the names of all things by allah, as you say, in this ideal, abstract enclosed garden.

So islam tends to time jump the nomadic straight into the sedentary, and yet the fall also signals a return back to nomadology. the constant revolving mathematical (but not number as such) tension between tribal solidarity and the politics of the state.

If I can find my ibn-khaldun university essay I wrote on a night of speed I'll post it here. I really think it's relevant. doubtless I'll find a lot to quibble with and the writing style I employed at the time to illustrate what I was saying was cringe inducing in the extreme but...
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
"The Libations of Dasein,
Feverishly absconding into multiplicity,
Chasing thought eternal,
For days of future nonchalance.

Fugacious mirror half,
Neither hürem nor Ayhan, neither Fortuna nor Tyche,
The bastard child of Hades and Timur,
Bereft of gold, replete with shards of jagged tin.

Pounding anticipation,
Surgical knife,
Mantric minimalism,
Enfant terrible.

Gnawing on their putrid remains,
Guzzling their entrails,
Egregious Canis familiaris,
Of sublime affirmation."
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I think i have one more short poem saved and still can't find the khaldun essay. i know i have it, i just can't figure out how to search an entire 6tb hd with the word ibn khaldun, that isn't file names. back in the windows 7 days i could easily search for Gräfenberg squirt and all the information i needed was at the tips of my nipels.
 

other_life

bioconfused
the creation myths from supplanting peoples (that were later themselves supplanted) tend to represent this. a goddess closely linked with a founder-king that turns into a lake and drowns all of people that live underground, but who do not die until the founder king bests the underground ruler in single combat. a different myth of this founder king says that he set a magical fire that ringed around the underground people as they went above ground to gather grass one day. one group says that its own ancestors were burned to death in a house by their neighbors and that they fled to their current land after. another says that its ancestors won their lands by duping their neighbors, who were buried alive in a pit trap after being invited to a feast. those killed in these myths (who aren't viewed as ancestral) are usually people from underground, occasionally the forest, who were wanderers- usually phrased derisively, in ironic contrast to the just as nomadic founder-kings of many groups- with occasional magical characteristics who tended to be killed by a combination of magic and cleverness. when looked at in the light of the genocide, exocide, and filicide suffusing the lives of the people who passed these stories down the relentless commonalities between all these stories horrifies and disgusts. It's like the constant mentions of "unspeakable ancient abstracted horrors grown pervasive and virulent" in cyclonopedia but born out of actual lived human experience, not the urge to shock some professors in a room somewhere.
Ya'aqov literally means 'supplanter', doesn't it?
 

other_life

bioconfused
another quick note re:the Garden Narrative as well. man is condemned to be a horticulturalist for his own survival on being expelled, not necessarily a nomad. but it is Qayin the horticulturalist, who kills Hibil the pastoralist, who is specifically condemned to nomadology
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
another quick note re:the Garden Narrative as well. man is condemned to be a horticulturalist for his own survival on being expelled, not necessarily a nomad. but it is Qayin the horticulturalist, who kills Hibil the pastoralist, who is specifically condemned to nomadology

Cain and Abel, right? Is the Islamic version of this story basically the same as the one in the Old Testament? I tend to assume the Jewish, Christian and Islamic versions of these very early stories are more or less equivalent but there some interesting differences, such as Iblis/Shaytan being a djinn rather than an angel (and, in Sufism, the most loyal of them, rather than a renegade).
 

other_life

bioconfused
the satan being the most loyal djinn tracks w his probably original role in sefer iyov as a more neutral legal accuser on haShem's legal team against man in general and iyov in specific
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Right - I've heard the epithet "the Accuser" before but it never really made sense.

How did you get into all this stuff? Religious upbringing, or just "this seems interesting"?
 

other_life

bioconfused
precisely because my parents had such shitty experiences w their respective christian denominations. wanted magical powers as a child so it's been a compulsion to find out if that was possible
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
its possible but you need to invent your own subversion of language before you start delving into the annals of esoterica imo. you have to break the conformism, even the chaos magick or Aleister crowley one, which is shit. in other words you have to eliminate the references or tether them to a minimal framework. for instance i try not to drop too many historical references in prose as I want non-experts to be effected by my linguistic rituals.

the mc is a magician.

MF Doom is not a great magician, too much pop cultural references.
 
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thirdform

pass the sick bucket
just on quality before i move back to music forum...

Also: the process of exchange can't be conceptualised non-abstractly by its participants, if it was able to, commodity society and thereby money simply wouldn't exist. so the two are linked, this is why i think value is important to consider. value is a material social relation but an immaterial object, hence you cannot have a perfect representation of value, it's not possible. Marx isn't really a scientific naturalist, if he was, value would have to be measured materially, which it can't. surplus value obviously can. as an object, a table is not inherently endowed with an exchange value, only value in its abstract and use value, so, in essence, just use value, it ascertains the character of exchange value on the market. so when we talk about use value, value and exchange value, what we are arguing is that *value* is the concept that encapsulates the two, but also allows us to derive the abstraction of the cellular commodity. Every commodity can be reduced down the *form* of the commodity, and hence *equality of all values.*

For instance:

can you imagine going to a shop and saying i want to exchange this imperfect, abstract representation of value (call it a perfect forgery of a banknote with 'surplus value' written on it rather than £10) for a bottle of wine, but all I'm doing is giving you is appropriated labour, not anything that really can be considered a £10 note. mans would think you loony. And if someone did that, they would openly exposing the fetishism of commodities, because that is all what money is, the highest general equivalent of value. money in some senses then today is also a form of quality, mathematically and epistemologically. in this sense, the abolition of money also means reconnecting our head and hand together, something antithetical to bourgeois thought.

When you go to a shop, you are not literally saying I need a bottle of wine and its given to you. this is what is meant by abstract labour, in the sense that capitalism reduces all labour to its own abstract logic and hence is able to represent all labour through money. if it didn't, there would still persist forms of barter and mutual aid, other forms of subsistance, patronage, stuff like that.

So the hollowist construction (and maoists in the US traffic in this) is saying third world workers don't appropriate surplus value whereas first world workers do. if third world workers didn't, they would die. capital *alienates* the class from itself as such, hence marx's distinction between class in itself (even cops are proletarians according to this definition) and class for itself, the partisans fighting for their political supremacy and communism. this is the meaning of the totalitarian dictatorial class party, all the condensations of the classes historical existence. this is different to *a formal party* existing in a specific time period in a specific location. formal parties can degenerate, and always have done and always will do. the class party cannot degenerate unless, of course, the class is killed as a social fact. this would however mean that capitalism would not be able to sell what it produced and collapse completely. so instead what they try is universal basic income, an attempt to castrate the atomised class party even further. this is possible,, because of disastrous historical mistakes both made by communists who ended up crossing the class line - capitalist leaders in waiting, (third international) and certain dissensuses of the proletariat. communism is closer in this aspect to islamic salvation, there is no dawn and no christ dying for our sins. we either continue to make mistakes of seismic historical proportions and lead to microsovereignties and starvation, or we attempt to repent not for forgiveness but in the hope that we are forgiven. unfortunately, most communists are christian atheists, and this is a big problem. I blame Zizek very much for making this hip and trendy.
 
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luka

Well-known member
I dunno third, I think it's just a cast of mind that stuff. I've got at least one friend who is heavily into it. Any avenue of study can be profitable (although in his case it is always a prelude to a psychotic break) if you treat it as what Olson called, an immersion job. I don't think there's rules anyone has to follow.
 
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