Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Popcorn at the ready, lads!


Ryan Kelley, a Republican running for governor in Michigan who was at the Capitol during the Jan. 6 attack, was arrested at his home in Allendale, Mich., on Thursday morning, according to Mara R. Schneider, a special agent with the F.B.I.

Mr. Kelley is the first person running for election in a major state or federal race to be charged in connection with the attack.
 

Leo

Well-known member
I didn't watch the hearings but from highlights and reporting, it seems like the committee took a good approach in spending much of the time showing video clip testimony from members of the Trump team, basically all saying none of them (including Trump) actually believed there was voter fraud or the election was stolen. In their own words is more powerful and convincing that a bunch of Dems on the committee saying the same thing.

a highlight was bill Barr saying he told Trump the charges of a stolen election were "bullshit", and Ivanka saying she agreed.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Interesting to look at twitter as this goes on and see how many of MAGA don't see 20,000 Mules as an interesting and potentially new hypoethesis about how Dems and their minions may have conceivably cheated in the election - going by the twitter comments, people believe (or claim to) that it represents absolutely categorcial cast iron proof of fraud and, is sufficient in itself too overturn the election.

In fact this last bit is, in one sense, what I find particularly strange. From the way people talk they see 2,000 Mules not just as evidence but also seemingly, as somehow in itself the mechanism of change. What I mean is, you and I know that the 2020 is election is completely done and dusted and that there is no way to change it*, but presumably all these dickheads howling to "decertify" can't grasp that and - you would think - must bellieve that, now they finally have the utterly undeniable proof they've been promising for years, that there should be some way to deploy it so that the criminals involved are punished and, more importantly, it gets some kind of official recognition that it is proof and that there was fraud. Which I guess would be the first steps towards demonstrating that the siting POTUS is illegitimate and precipitating a constitutional crisis that would riemove him.

But I've not heard any mention of any such steps, any moves to use it in court or anywhere. In their eyes it is ALREADY official, they can happily say "fraud has been proven" and beileve they are telling the truth. They demand "decertify" or "Put Trump back as president" but who are they talking to? Maybe God? I dunno, but there seems to be a beleif that the video is the proof they need and that at some point it will itself magically depose BIden and bring back Trump. And maybe wind time back to jan 2021 as well.

Am I making any sense here? I guess what I'm saying is that finding some evidence that convinces your side should be the first step, next should be convincing the other side too and getting it officially recognised. And at that point it could be used to achieve something. But instead it all seems to have ground completely to a hallt at the very beginning of the process.

Regardless of that, I can see - if I couldn't before - that the US voting system and confidence in it is fatally damaged - it's completely destroyed. These people will now simply never accept defeat and will automatically refuse to recognise the legitimacy of any result they don't like.


*we also know the video is a lame rehash of allegations that have already been investigated and thrown out for failing to come anywhere near the required standard of proof of course
 

Leo

Well-known member
destined to become an iconic image, or at least a meme.

10cottle1-superJumbo.jpg
 

sufi

lala
Interesting to look at twitter as this goes on and see how many of MAGA don't see 20,000 Mules as an interesting and potentially new hypoethesis about how Dems and their minions may have conceivably cheated in the election - going by the twitter comments, people believe (or claim to) that it represents absolutely categorcial cast iron proof of fraud and, is sufficient in itself too overturn the election.

In fact this last bit is, in one sense, what I find particularly strange. From the way people talk they see 2,000 Mules not just as evidence but also seemingly, as somehow in itself the mechanism of change. What I mean is, you and I know that the 2020 is election is completely done and dusted and that there is no way to change it*, but presumably all these dickheads howling to "decertify" can't grasp that and - you would think - must bellieve that, now they finally have the utterly undeniable proof they've been promising for years, that there should be some way to deploy it so that the criminals involved are punished and, more importantly, it gets some kind of official recognition that it is proof and that there was fraud. Which I guess would be the first steps towards demonstrating that the siting POTUS is illegitimate and precipitating a constitutional crisis that would riemove him.

But I've not heard any mention of any such steps, any moves to use it in court or anywhere. In their eyes it is ALREADY official, they can happily say "fraud has been proven" and beileve they are telling the truth. They demand "decertify" or "Put Trump back as president" but who are they talking to? Maybe God? I dunno, but there seems to be a beleif that the video is the proof they need and that at some point it will itself magically depose BIden and bring back Trump. And maybe wind time back to jan 2021 as well.

Am I making any sense here? I guess what I'm saying is that finding some evidence that convinces your side should be the first step, next should be convincing the other side too and getting it officially recognised. And at that point it could be used to achieve something. But instead it all seems to have ground completely to a hallt at the very beginning of the process.

Regardless of that, I can see - if I couldn't before - that the US voting system and confidence in it is fatally damaged - it's completely destroyed. These people will now simply never accept defeat and will automatically refuse to recognise the legitimacy of any result they don't like.


*we also know the video is a lame rehash of allegations that have already been investigated and thrown out for failing to come anywhere near the required standard of proof of course
i think you are making sense i read all of it

i was initially confused about the mules though - have you seen it?

what is happening is like storification of reality, a cloud cuckoo land emerging into existence by force of will
manifesting your destiny and so on, and of course it can work, dreams can become real, seizing the initiative
& it seems the antitrumpers and dems are attempting to play back at that game, creating a slick tv narrative as well as exercising the conventional establishment instruments - the hearing and so on, the old one two, impressed tbh to see any sort of mettle there
if you ask me US democracy is damaged by so many factors from the ground up that these fraud allegations are barely significant even if true but i havent watched the film

 

IdleRich

IdleRich
i think you are making sense i read all of it

i was initially confused about the mules though - have you seen it?

what is happening is like storification of reality, a cloud cuckoo land emerging into existence by force of will
manifesting your destiny and so on, and of course it can work, dreams can become real, seizing the initiative
& it seems the antitrumpers and dems are attempting to play back at that game, creating a slick tv narrative as well as exercising the conventional establishment instruments - the hearing and so on, the old one two, impressed tbh to see any sort of mettle there
if you ask me US democracy is damaged by so many factors from the ground up that these fraud allegations are barely significant even if true but i havent watched the film

I haven't seen it... but I have read a fair bit about it. One thing that jumped out is that these claims have been made before, investigated and rejected as failing to meet the required evidential standards... so it's just another rehashing of a seriously flogged to death horse.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
(Glad it made some sense anyway
What is happening is like storification of reality, a cloud cuckoo land emerging into existence by force of will
manifesting your destiny and so on, and of course it can work, dreams can become real, seizing the initiative
& it seems the antitrumpers and dems are attempting to play back at that game, creating a slick tv narrative as well as exercising the conventional establishment instruments - the hearing and so on, the old one two, impressed tbh to see any sort of mettle there
if you ask me US democracy is damaged by so many factors from the ground up that these fraud allegations are barely significant even if true

This is what I mean. The truth or otherwise is now all but irrelevant, it's just a battle of conflicting narratives. And I dunno how thus can be reversed and actuality start to matter again.
 

version

Well-known member
This stuff is obviously important, but I don't think it's as important as inflation hitting 8.6%. It feels like a bit of a sideshow for the political and media classes to do their thing with while ordinary people are just trying to keep food on the table and fill up their cars.

 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I think both are important. Inflation clearly affects the daily life of citizens - but the idea that cos it's high they should cease the hearings is a silly one. Regardless of where you stand on their legitimacy. Either they are valid and should take place or they're not - but the Inflation rate shouldn't have any bearing on that decision.
To be clear, I'm not thinking that is your point but a lot of people are making that argument and loads of similar ones to drown out the hearing. To me that just looks desperate.
 

sufi

lala
This stuff is obviously important, but I don't think it's as important as inflation hitting 8.6%. It feels like a bit of a sideshow for the political and media classes to do their thing with while ordinary people are just trying to keep food on the table and fill up their cars.

yeah but its a spectacular sideshow
 

Leo

Well-known member
Someone -- especially a former president -- trying to subvert free and fair elections and US democracy is a pretty fucking big deal.
 

sufi

lala
Someone -- especially a former president -- trying to subvert free and fair elections and US democracy is a pretty fucking big deal.
well yes but does the hearing have powers to send him to jail or ban him from being a candidate?
 

Leo

Well-known member
the justice department brings charges, not congress. but the hearings could make trump even more radioactive to all the independents and none-MAGA republicans who didn't vote for him last time.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yes I've been meaning to ask what powers (if any) the committee holding the hearing has. How does it end? Do they draw a conclusion and can they act on it? Or is it gonna be one of those things where at the end they say "Having examined carefully all the evidence and spoken at length to numerous witnesses we are able to conclude that it is fully proven that Trump did indeed incite an insurrection, a chillingly authoritarian strike at the heart of our democracy in an attempt to remain as president despite knowing full well that he had lost the election. In this he was aided by x, y and z senators and numerous proscribed organisations. Those named individuals are guilty of an attack on American democracy and freedom, they are traitors to America and the very idea of America. I therefore feel that I have no choice but to sentence them as severely as my powers allow and to give them the maximum possible punishment... which is absolutely fuck all so carry on chaps, as you were".
 

sufi

lala
Yes I've been meaning to ask what powers (if any) the committee holding the hearing has. How does it end? Do they draw a conclusion and can they act on it? Or is it gonna be one of those things where at the end they say "Having examined carefully all the evidence and spoken at length to numerous witnesses we are able to conclude that it is fully proven that Trump did indeed incite an insurrection, a chillingly authoritarian strike at the heart of our democracy in an attempt to remain as president despite knowing full well that he had lost the election. In this he was aided by x, y and z senators and numerous proscribed organisations. Those named individuals are guilty of an attack on American democracy and freedom, they are traitors to America and the very idea of America. I therefore feel that I have no choice but to sentence them as severely as my powers allow and to give them the maximum possible punishment... which is absolutely fuck all so carry on chaps, as you were".
like a show trial without the trial
 
Top