Industrial Action

jenks

thread death
Thanks Matt - i saw that earlier and decided not to post as I couldn't quite compose myself.

I just don't see colleagues on that kind of money - even a Head of a major department , top of UPS is not going to hit 45k. I'm a Head of English - yes I chose to take that role as I wanted to make soem decisions rathe rtahn have them made for me. However, this notion that we wouldn't survive in the private sector - accountability, target setting, performance related pay, long hours...

The thread was really about strikes etc and it has become about teachers and it wasn't my intention.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
well, you know us teachers, we can't last 5 minutes in a discussion board environment and i'm too busy refusing to do paperwork to chat right now.

If instead of insisting on being offended, you actually look at what I wrote, you'll see that I was referring to doing 'administrative/strategic roles' in the public sector vs the private sector.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
If instead of insisting on being offended, you actually look at what I wrote, you'll see that I was referring to doing 'administrative/strategic roles' in the public sector vs the private sector.

you were making generalised statements, without evidence to back them up, which could apply to any profession. whereas you seem to think they are problems inherent within teaching.

i don't think you have a clue what you are talking about, or if you have some experience, you take isolated examples and conflate them into a general theory.

that's not a position i'm interested in discussing with
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Having said that, we can surely all agree that everyone working in the private sector is a selfish wanker who would sell their own grandmother if they thought it would help them climb up the career ladder and achieve their dream of rolling around in piles of money whilst stabbing poor people in the eyes with solid gold jewel-encrusted skewers?
 
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D

droid

Guest
Having said that we can surely all agree that everyone working in the private sector is a selfish wanker who would sell their own grandmother if they thought it would help them climb up the career ladder and achieve their dream of rolling around in piles of money whilst stabbing poor people in the eyes with sold gold skewers?

Ive heard that they drink the blood of public sector infants, and they want to destroy us because they hate our 'values'.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Ive heard that they drink the blood of public sector infants, and they want to destroy us because they hate our 'values'.

That is certainly the impression I got, whilst walking through the City of London this morning.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
you were making generalised statements, without evidence to back them up, which could apply to any profession. whereas you seem to think they are problems inherent within teaching.

I think you're being unfair here. I've asked questions, I haven't asserted too much, I've been pretty clear about differentiating opinion from fact. In terms of pay figures, I looked at the NUT notes (http://www.teachers.org.uk/resources/pdf/PayConditionsENGLISH-5165.pdf) - what do you want me to do? As for the £45,000 putting you in the top 10% of earners, that comes from figures from my Mother's Daily Heil though the story did not talk about teachers - I think they were talking about a study that had just been published.

I actually think you've got it the wrong way round. I'm the one arguing that problems that teachers seem to think as inherent to their profession can actually be found in a lot of professions.

you take isolated examples and conflate them into a general theory.

Well, isn't that kinda what you do when making general theories? You take isolated examples, you make a theory, then you test the theory. I think what you're trying to say is that you think I'm wrong, but trying to explain why would be more trouble than you think it's worth. Fair enough, but asserting that I'm spouting bollocks is a generalised statement without evidence to back it up.
 
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matt b

Indexing all opinion
as jenks has said, the tread is about striking- not something teachers do lightly. then you waded in slagging the profession off. with irrelevant points.

re: theory generation- read karl popper
 

vimothy

yurp
Good old Karl...

Found this interesting:

The strike is in protest at the government’s announcement of a 2.45 per cent pay rise this year, followed by 2.3 per cent in 2009 and 2010.

Looks pretty bad -- I expect inflation to be through the fucking roof by 2010*, possibly to the extent that you're taking a 5% pay cut in real terms every year.

And this:

Another delegate from East London, Paul McGarr, said: "The government has the money to give us what we need - two words prove that Northern Rock."

Er, Paul...? The lad's obviously a bit confused.

*EDIT: Yeah, thanks for a great year of rampant currency devaluation everyone!
 
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matt b

Indexing all opinion
Another delegate from East London, Paul McGarr, said: "The government has the money to give us what we need - two words prove that Northern Rock."

Er, Paul...? The lad's obviously a bit confused.

what he should have said is something like "the gvt finds money to buy northern rock and prop up the money markets. teacher's demands are miniscule in comparison and in addition, there is no evidence to suggest the increase would be inflationary"
 

comelately

Wild Horses
as jenks has said, the tread is about striking- not something teachers do lightly. then you waded in slagging the profession off. with irrelevant points.

This thread had clearly moved on to talking about teachers by page two of this thread, I didn't contribute until page 3. I at no point slagged teachers off as an entire profession, you are making generalised statements without any evidence to back them up.

My contribution to this thread began with me asking if most teachers wouldn't be receiving an increase through the pay scale. That's a perfectly relevant question to ask. As I have suggested, it seems you are going to insist on being offended even if it means more or less wilfully engaging in misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

re: theory generation- read karl popper

Already have, though it was a while ago. I'm confused about whether you have a point or are merely suggesting improving reading - I agree with Popper that theory generation cannot be entirely rational and that falsification should definitely be emphasised when testing a theory.
 

vimothy

yurp
what he should have said is something like "the gvt finds money to buy northern rock and prop up the money markets. teacher's demands are miniscule in comparison and in addition, there is no evidence to suggest the increase would be inflationary"

Well, it's pretty clear that the government has spent more money than it should have this year. If anything, the two words "Northern Rock" explain why you're not getting the pay rise you deserve.

EDIT: should read "explain why you're getting a pay cut you don't deserve.
 

vimothy

yurp
what he should have said is something like "the gvt finds money to buy northern rock and prop up the money markets. teacher's demands are miniscule in comparison and in addition, there is no evidence to suggest the increase would be inflationary"

Anyone know what the total cost to the government would be if pay were to rise with inflation?
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
My contribution to this thread began with me asking if most teachers wouldn't be receiving an increase through the pay scale. That's a perfectly relevant question to ask.

yes, and it was pointed out that it was not necessarily the case, at which point you started on your 'teachers are idle failures' speil


As I have suggested, it seems you are going to insist on being offended even if it means more or less wilfully engaging in misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

i'm not offended. i'm a little bored.


Already have, though it was a while ago. I'm confused about whether you have a point or are merely suggesting improving reading - I agree with Popper that theory generation cannot be entirely rational and that falsification should definitely be emphasised when testing a theory.

popper would disagree with your statement about how general theories should come about. it wasn't a dig.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
Well, it's pretty clear that the government has spent more money than it should have this year. If anything, the two words "Northern Rock" explain why you're not getting the pay rise you deserve.

EDIT: should read "explain why you're getting a pay cut you don't deserve.

exactly
 

comelately

Wild Horses
yes, and it was pointed out that it was not necessarily the case, at which point you started on your 'teachers are idle failures' speil


comelately said:
Don't get me wrong, I am on the whole sympathetic to the teacher's case for more money. But I honestly think there's a sizeable minority of teachers are on a fairly easy ride, and are in the profession mainly for that reason.

I didn't say "all teachers work 09:00-15:30 and have 3 months off a year". I didn't say "those who can't, teach". You guys saw the comment about certain workers within the public sector (I was not referring to teachers as such, though I think a lot of teachers wouldn't necessarily make great sales managers for example) and you hear the speil in your heads. But it isn't what I wrote.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
I didn't say "all teachers work 09:00-15:30 and have 3 months off a year". I didn't say "those who can't, teach". You guys saw the comment about certain workers within the public sector (I was not referring to teachers as such, though I think a lot of teachers wouldn't necessarily make great sales managers for example) and you hear the speil in your heads. But it isn't what I wrote.

those comments were made either by teachers, or long time posters.

you said:

"But I honestly think there's a sizeable minority of teachers are on a fairly easy ride, and are in the profession mainly for that reason."

which in my experience of seeing other teachers, is clearly rubbish. i however am an idle failure and am a teacher for that very reason. i'll be off at 3.00 today. btw.
 
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