scottdisco

rip this joint please
You're all a bunch of babies. If people want to blow horns, let them blow horns. As one ESPN journo pointed out recently at least you have the option of blowing horns or not. Security aren't even letting kids bring bags of crisps into the Stadium because they do not co-incide with the franchising deals.

Go on though, let's ban something else.

well said.

i'd love to ban parochial British tabloids, wallowing in their own insularity, bleating on and on about how these awful horns make such a frightful racket, you see, and don't you know that people are ringing up the BBC and ITV to complain, it's really not good enough, and

oh
just fuck off
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Yeah - I'm sure everyone on this forum is against the boring homogenisation that occurs as part of globalisation and capitalism so for me the vuvuzelahs are but one (loud) symbol that there can still be influence of local cultures on a wider stage, and especially important when it's something as innocuous as a bit of noise. I'm fully a cultural relativist when it comes down to the type of crowd noise at sporting events. If middle England doesn't like it then turn down the telly...
 

Dr Awesome

Techsteppin'
vuvuzelaterror.jpg


I'm just going to add humorous images rather than contribute a well thought out and concise answer.
 

luka

Well-known member
sickboy are you stupid. no one said ban them. i said they're shit but keep them. the world cup is in sa if they like blowing those thing let them blow them. i dont care.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Shame on you, people, for making it an anti-lower-middle, anti-working class Englander issue (and shame on me for, similarly, making a cl(ass) of myself) - there's no evidence that the enlightened Aadginru cohort come pre-fitted with vuvuzela filters or are better equipped to enjoy monotonic drones (although, granted, fieldwork in the avant-garde record shops of Highgate might provide evidence to the contrary).

As for cultural homogeneity, the vuvuzela overpowers and flattens all else, brooks no argument - dro(w)ning out not only other home-grown SA practices but the rich variety of chants and music that foreign supporters might bring.

Sure, you're all happy to fake compassion in your token and ill-conceived championing of the 'oppressed' hornblowers but when it comes to the Premier's premieres will you be so keen to have horny fans giving their instrument a blowjob next to you? Will you *parp*!
 
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grizzleb

Well-known member
Shame on you, people, for making it an anti-lower-middle, anti-working class Englander issue (and shame on me for, similarly, making a cl(ass) of myself) - there's no evidence that the enlightened Aadginru cohort come pre-fitted with vuvuzela filters or are better equipped to enjoy monotonic drones (although, granted, fieldwork in the avant-garde record shops of Highgate might provide evidence to the contrary).

As for cultural homogeneity, the vuvuzela overpowers and flattens all else, brooks no argument - dro(w)ning out not only other home-grown SA practices but the rich variety of chants and music that foreign supporters might bring.

Sure, you're all happy to fake compassion in your token and ill-conceived championing of the 'oppressed' hornblowers but when it comes to the Premier's premieres will you be so keen to have horny fans giving their instrument a blowjob next to you? Will you *parp*!
Token and ill-conceived, got to love this place.

I've said I don't mind the vuvuzelah and I quite like the vibe it gives - the ebb and flow of match is matched by it. So I wouldn't mind if it got taken up in the premiership, but I fully accept that I'm in the minority. The point about homogeneity is this - the world cup happens once every 4 years, in differing locations. The vuvuzelah or lack thereof is just one of the many multitude of potential differences that fans can experience when going to a game- I don't think it right that certain kinds of footstuffs, certain kinds of facepaint, certain kinds of singing or whatever at a game should be taken as official ones because they are western and dominant and how it goes in the premiership. Part of the point of the world cup is that its about cultures meeting, an exchange - and it only happens once every four years, so I'd like to see a bit more open-mindedness from some people. I'm not calling you or anyone else who doesn't like it racist, I just think it a bit petulant and places a huge emphasis on the ways in which things are done in our great footballing nation, which has all the greatest players in the world don't you know?

I heard quite a bit of singing last night from the mexicans so your point that it drowns out everything else is wrong too.

And I dunno quite what you mean by this
Shame on you, people, for making it an anti-lower-middle, anti-working class Englander issue
so apologies if I've misconstrued what you've said but if you're trying to make out that I'm some sort of toff liberal that can afford to not have any cultural allegiences or whatever I grew up in a council scheme in Glasgow mate.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Part of the point of the world cup is that its about cultures meeting, an exchange - and it only happens once every four years, so I'd like to see a bit more open-mindedness from some people.

The thing is the vuvuzela is so loud as to inhibit cultural exchange per se and may not even be representative of the SA supporters' popular will (for the reasons I proposed earlier), just as the Godawful England band is hated by the majority of fans here.

The best thing to do is to consider how one would best compose the 'ideal conditions' - personally speaking - at a football match (whilst being 'open-minded' ie. properly considering all available options) and then think about how the vuvuzela would fit. As my ideal supporting conditions would privilege dynamic responses - the crowd spontaneously reacting to the action and the players being able to tune in to their responses (as well as hear each other) - I am against vuvuzelas, for as long as they are overwhelming.

Allowing political motivations to hijack one's own personal preferences and the desires that issue from them is insular and potentially racist, as it assumes the existence of discrete groups of people with whom negotiation would be impossible or inappropriate (seeking a democratic global consensus on supporting conditions during a World Cup is not inappropriate).

I heard quite a bit of singing last night from the mexicans so your point that it drowns out everything else is wrong too.

My point is that if something - whatever it is - drowns out everything else, then it's better to get rid of it. I suspect that the vuvuzelas of last night's game (I don't mind them at that level) had been muted by technical wizardry or microphone placement.

And I dunno quite what you mean by this so apologies if I've misconstrued what you've said but if you're trying to make out that I'm some sort of toff liberal that can afford to not have any cultural allegiences or whatever I grew up in a council scheme in Glasgow mate.

I was referring to the use of 'middle England' and 'tabloid' as synonyms for wrong.
(As if one can be 'wrong' about whether one enjoys the aesthetic experience of the monotonic drone or not).
 
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luka

Well-known member
no scott i disagree, biscuits is right and so am i. they are shit. just because africans like them doesn't make them good.
 

luka

Well-known member
whats have your say? he sounds like that r|t|c, on ilx... really garbled and trying too hard. but hes' right here i think.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
The thing is the vuvuzela is so loud as to inhibit cultural exchange per se and may not even be representative of the SA supporters' popular will (for the reasons I proposed earlier), just as the Godawful England band is hated by the majority of fans here.

The best thing to do is to consider how one would best compose the 'ideal conditions' - personally speaking - at a football match (whilst being 'open-minded' ie. properly considering all available options) and then think about how the vuvuzela would fit. As my ideal supporting conditions would privilege dynamic responses - the crowd spontaneously reacting to the action and the players being able to tune in to their responses (as well as hear each other) - I am against vuvuzelas, for as long as they are overwhelming.

Allowing political motivations to hijack one's own personal preferences and the desires that issue from them is insular and potentially racist, as it assumes the existence of discrete groups of people with whom negotiation would be impossible or inappropriate (seeking a democratic global consensus on supporting conditions during a World Cup is not inappropriate).



My point is that if something - whatever it is - drowns out everything else, then it's better to get rid of it. I suspect that the vuvuzelas of last night's game (I don't mind them at that level) had been muted by technical wizardry or microphone placement.



I was referring to the use of 'middle England' and 'tabloid' as shorthands for wrongness.
(As if one can be 'wrong' about whether one enjoys the aesthetic experience of the monotonic drone or not).
You're just making assumptions though. Based on the huge cheers that Desmond Tutu got (and the fact that he mentioned it at all) when he talked about the vuvuzelahs - as well as the fact I've seen 2 south african house tunes with the vuvuzelah as a centrepoint imply that they are important to a great many of the supporters. The idea that it drowns out consensus is wild too. If most people didn't like it - most people wouldn't use it - it's something fully optional - not self-selecting (a proposition I find quite mental).

Ones 'ideal conditions' for a football match as you say are not anothers. Your desire for dynamics throughout the game I think is something the vuvuzelahs do cater for. Listen to it get louder when there's a corner, or alternately go all but silent when the run of play is sluggish.

Technical wizardry or mic placement shows a lack of knowledge about sound recording that I shan't go into. If it's loud enough to drown everything out it's loud enough to drown everything out - fin.

It's not about discrete groups of people who can't be negotiated with - it's about the fact that once every four years you come to our country and get to do things our way...whether you find this to your tastes or not if your problem. Democratic global consensus invariabley will assume the form of western hegemonic dominance from my point of view, and difference is important, really important. Anyway, I think I've said enough. And btw I do find tabloids distasteful.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
whats have your say? he sounds like that r|t|c, on ilx... really garbled and trying too hard. but hes' right here i think.

The BBC's comments section.

Biscuit's comments just read like sniping at a target that doesn't exist here (bringing in class/race).

Second the trying too hard though.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
The idea that it drowns out consensus is wild too. If most people didn't like it - most people wouldn't use it - it's something fully optional - not self-selecting (a proposition I find quite mental).

My point was that it only takes a minority of v-users to prevent non-users from expressing themselves as they would want to - that's blatantly obvious. Are you trying to argue that the instrument is 'not very loud'?

Ones 'ideal conditions' for a football match as you say are not anothers. Your desire for dynamics throughout the game I think is something the vuvuzelahs do cater for. Listen to it get louder when there's a corner, or alternately go all but silent when the run of play is sluggish.

How do you make a vuvuzela go 'oooh'? I do agree with you, though - when vuvuzelas provide for dynamics, I'm for them.

Technical wizardry or mic placement shows a lack of knowledge about sound recording that I shan't go into. If it's loud enough to drown everything out it's loud enough to drown everything out - fin.

EQing or putting microphones next to fans without vuvuzelas (who, locally, would not be drowned out (they can hear each other), but within the stadium as a whole, would be largely inaudible), away from those with.

it's about the fact that once every four years you come to our country and get to do things our way...whether you find this to your tastes or not if your problem.

No, the World Cup's host is not the boss - they bend over backwards to get accepted and then do nigh on everything as the governing body sees fit.

In any case, it would be a poor host who fails to cater to their guests' wishes.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
no scott i disagree, biscuits is right and so am i. they are shit. just because africans like them doesn't make them good.

you think they are shit, i don't, i think they are a laugh. (the bit of your quote i've bolded BTW is obv correct, but who said otherwise. you didn't really need to put that in, tbf.)

asking 'would you like them in the Premiership' is a red herring, i am just commenting that people moaning about them is starting to get on my wick, obv it's anecdotal & personal to me in my particular situation, but on my Facebook status feed the amount of friends and relatives of mine who never watch football but have updated once during this WC w a snarky comment about them is laughably predictable.

we are just going to go around in circles here and just because i posted - in a fairly wry and not entirely seriously phrased manner as well, i might add - that British tabloid newspapers dislike them (w their readership from low-income backgrounds to wealthy Middle England shires) M_B has tried to put something in w a tangent about class etc that Grizzleb and Matt have rightly critiqued.
 
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