The Carbon Thread

D

droid

Guest
AFAIK, the science behind climate change is as credible as the science behind evolution or the big bang.

The difference between economics and climatology/physics/chemistry/geology/biology etc... is that economics is dependent purely on the actions and psychology of humans and is more akin to sociology than hard science. It is entirely possible the societies could exist where nearly every rule of economics as we understand it could be turned on its head (CF Native Americans), the same is not true of climatology. No human belief system can change the fact that water evaporates at a certain temperature or that plants absorb x-amount of carbon etc...
 

massrock

Well-known member
Consider the famous hockey stick. Obviously, the latter part is now somewhat controversial. But imagine that it is not. Does the trend tell us anything about causality? No. It just tells us about the trend: that a rise in CO2 coincided with a rise in the global mean temperature.
The data can't prove causality. But of course that's not all that climatologists look at is it? For one thing the greenhouse effect with regards to carbon dioxide is well understood. That makes the data far more compelling no?
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
what is the % of economists who disagree w NAIRU? i know nothing about the dismal science but a quick Wiki shows that - like climate change debates - not everyone is on board w it.

monetarists certainly are. (when i hear the name Milton Friedman i tend to reach for my rifle ;) )

obviously not every one is on board w climate change, but i believe it is a very significant proportion of the scientific community. i am just wondering if it is a comparable proportion of the economists' community wrt NAIRU.

that said, i don't need to be an economist to know that every region of the world is getting more unequal (save Latin America since 2000, although i can't link to the FT piece i read about this in yday due to firewalls), or a climatologist to know the world has been heating up.

i like the device of comparing economics and climatology to get a debate going though Vim :cool:
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
What % of scientists disagree with climate change/man made climate change? Last time I checked it was approx 0%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

thanks Droid. w that in mind, i think Vim's NAIRU analogy is, w respect, inappropriate.

economics seems far less rigorous to me than climatology.

i take on board the point that neither are as overarching as the theory of evolution, say, but as you say yourself, Droid, water does evaporate at a certain temperature, regardless.

etc.
 

vimothy

yurp
AFAIK, the science behind climate change is as credible as the science behind evolution or the big bang.

This isn’t true. (Actually I’m not 100% sure of the status of the big bang. I was under the impression that the book is not closed on it yet, but it’s not like I’m up to date on the field or anything).

The difference between economics and climatology/physics/chemistry/geology/biology etc... is that economics is dependent purely on the actions and psychology of humans and is more akin to sociology than hard science. It is entirely possible the societies could exist where nearly every rule of economics as we understand it could be turned on its head (CF Native Americans), the same is not true of climatology. No human belief system can change the fact that water evaporates at a certain temperature or that plants absorb x-amount of carbon etc...

What you’re saying is that there is essentially no difference between climate science and the “harder” sciences, whereas economics on the other hand is a social science, i.e. not a science at all, thus climate science pwns economics. Just think about this for a second. Exactly how is the issue settled? Can you reconstruct it for me?

The problems that economics faces are exactly the same as the problems that climate science faces: the complexity of the system, the impossibility of experiments, questionable data, and the overt politicisation of results.

Economics is a tool kit of mathematical models, from the simplest univariate constrained optimization problem, all the way up to dynamic stochastic models of the whole economy. There is no possible economy that cannot be modelled using these methods, just as there is no possible climate that cannot be modelled using GCM (nothing to do with psychology in either case). It’s as easy as pie to fit a regression line to a set of data points after the fact!

As John von Neumann said, give me four parameters and I can fit an elephant; with five I can wag its tail.

These models do not necessarily prove anything about anything, because all they show are the projections that the models are designed to produce. As such, they fall victim to the Lucas Critique (of course, so does Lucas, but that’s another story—oh wait, no it’s not, it’s the same story: that’s my point).

Consider a basic neoclassical growth model (the Cobb-Douglas production function):

Y = A(L^α)(K^β)​

Where Y is output, A is total factor productivity (technological change), L is labour, K is capital, and α and β are output elasticities.

Pretty straightforward, eh! Who said economic development was hard?

Consider a basic greenhouse model:

Global Warming = 0.36 x (33°C) x [(Total Forcing) ÷ (Base Forcing)]​

Again, pretty straightforward.

What do the models show? The models don’t necessarily show anything. Like I said, it’s as easy as pie to fit a regression line to a set of data.

It should be obvious that neither model is going to generate any large discontinuities. How do you feel about this? Consider the phase space of the climate—it’s absolutely huge, and massively complex. The climate exhibits discontinuous transitions from one position to another within this space (e.g. in 1976). It is not possible to accurately model this, even if plausible results are generated (i.e. results that lie within the boundary conditions of the climate). Plausible results don’t mean a whole lot. See also: macroeconomics.
 
Last edited:

vimothy

yurp
The data can't prove causality. But of course that's not all that climatologists look at is it? For one thing the greenhouse effect with regards to carbon dioxide is well understood. That makes the data far more compelling no?

What do you mean by compelling? Man-made global warming is a plausible explanation of the hockey stick, so by all means use your judgment, but don’t mistake your judgment for scientific method.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
The similarities that climatology and economics have compared to 'physics' or other 'hard sciences' is that they are concerned with modelling and predicting the outcomes of extremely large complex systems about which our knowledge is vastly incomplete. The idea that human interaction is more complex, less predictable than all the various chemical, biological, geological processes on the planet working in tandem seems to me pretty vain.
 
Last edited:
D

droid

Guest
All of the basic assumptions of economics are based on a model of human behaviour (rational choice. rational expectations etc...). The assumptions of climate change are based on observations and models of physical and chemical laws.

One of these two is predictable and consistent.
 
D

droid

Guest
The similarities that climatology and economics have compared to 'physics' or other 'hard sciences' is that they are concerned with modelling and predicting the outcomes of extremely large complex systems about which our knowledge is vastly incomplete. The idea that human interaction is more complex, less predictable than all the various chemical, biological, geological processes on the planet working in tandem seems to me pretty vain.

I disagree. Physical laws are immutable. Gravity doesn't just wake up one morning and start behaving differently.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
But you're conflating things - gravity isn't whats being measured and analysed. It's the total sum of all the processes which are going on in the entire planet!!
 
D

droid

Guest
But you're conflating things - gravity isn't whats being measured and analysed. It's the total sum of all the processes which are going on in the entire planet!!

Yes, and all of those processes are based on natural laws. Observable, verifiable natural laws.

The processes in economics are based on a model of human psychology. Irrational, contradictory human psychology.
 

vimothy

yurp
Grizzleb is spot on here. The climate is not like a billiard ball whose movements you can predict with Newtonian physics. Absolutely not. In fact, it is not at all simple to make a predictive model of an individual molecule, let alone the planet's climate. The IPCC makes projections rather than predictions--why is this? It's not because modelling the climate is easy.
 

vimothy

yurp
This is the famous graph from the IPCC. Note the word "projection". These are not predictions. Shouldn't the climate be easy to predict?

figure1.jpg


Look at the error bars around the projected trend lines. It looks bad, right? But these aren't error bars, these are +/- one standard deviation individual model averages. I.e., if you run the model a large enough number of times, 68% of the time the trend line will run through the bars, and the mean trend will run through the mean trend. It's just a projection! If you take a linear function y = mx + c, and add an error term, so that you have say y = mx + c – ((rand(time) % 100) + 50), you will get a line that jumps around the trend, seemingly at random. But over a large enough number of simulations, you will end up with the average y = mx + c, which is presisely what the projections show.

Ultimately, it doesn't mean anything--there is no information about the physical uncertainty of the projections in the graph--it's just a projection of a linear regression that fits past data.
 
Last edited:
D

droid

Guest
I never claimed it was easy, nor did I say that they're weren't problems with modeling. The basic fact remians though, natural physical processes are consistent and reliable, human behaviour is not.

Economics uses models to predict outcomes. These models in themselves are fundamentally based on a model of human behaviour. Climatology is based on models which are based on observable and predictable principles.
 

vimothy

yurp
Well, like I said -- give me some data and enough variables and I'll fit whatever you want. It isn't science though. Economics is exactly the same. I don't need a model of human psychlogy to look at historical data and generate an aggregate production function--I just need a few parameters.
 

vimothy

yurp
Just go back to the basic greenhouse model:

Global Warming = 0.36 x (33°C) x [(Total Forcing) ÷ (Base Forcing)]​

What do you think of this? Does it look intuitively correct to you?
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
I never claimed it was easy, nor did I say that they're weren't problems with modeling. The basic fact remians though, natural physical processes are consistent and reliable, human behaviour is not.

Economics uses models to predict outcomes. These models in themselves are fundamentally based on a model of human behaviour. Climatology is based on models which are based on observable and predictable principles.
Lets run with this. Human behaviour is something which emerges out of and operates inside of physical laws, no? So the problem with human behaviour is not that they are always set to random - humans operate as a result of and inside of physical laws. However, the problem is that we have incomplete knowledge of how those laws operate in human behaviour. So we have a lack of knowledge about something which operates inside of physical laws, and therefore that makes predicting (or projecting) human behaviour something which is very difficult and easily mistaken.
So we can say that climate models also, whilst operating entirely as a result of and inside physical laws are still things of which we have an incomplete knowledge. That makes climate modelling also something which is very difficult and easily mistaken.
 

vimothy

yurp
Exactly, all you have is a set of data points (proxies for the mosty part), and a regression line that you fit to them. GCM modellers don't understand the complex feed back effects or the topology of the climate phase space and how could they. No different to economic modellers.
 
Top