How the World Sees England

craner

Beast of Burden
Sure, to an extent, but from voting SNP in a general election to actually voting for Scottish independence should be a massive leap. It doesn't seem to me obvious that the two things should be related. How can anybody guarantee that a democratic scotland will always been ruled by a party that is in favour of a welfare state?

(And that's if you even agree that the welfare state has been eviscerated, which I don't particularly.)
 

luka

Well-known member
This is one of the things oliver is convincing on tea I suggest you concede graciously
 

droid

Well-known member
The trend in the uK is clear and has been almost unremitting since Thatcher. Blair put an end to any hope of reversal. Britain has been the most right wing (economically speaking) state in Europe by a mile for the last 25 years. It would take a seismic shift in Scottish sentiment and politics + years of attrition for Scotland to catch up.

An independent Scotland in a generally social democratic regionalised Europe is a viable alternative - or was, at least, until Europe went insane.
 

droid

Well-known member
Its not hard to see what lies in England's future. Just look across the pond. The only options now are to accelerate or delay the process.

The Scots see this as clearly as everyone else and will be gone given another chance, especially after the dirty tricks in the last campaign - which is why Cameron will never allow a loss in an EU referendum.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
I'm up for a debate on the pros and cons of the ESA Capability for Work Assessment, or DLA vs. PIP, or Universal Credit vs. Tax Credits, anytime, anywhere.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I'm guessing that you know nothing about the UK benefits system, but you have a chance to prove me wrong.
 

vimothy

yurp
You have to admit that this does not, on the surface, look like a country run by people who think "the [concept of] the nation is bad".

The resurgence of what you called "soft nationalism" (usually called "civic nationalism") is <i>reactive</i>. It arises because old political structures are breaking apart, and people want to ground the new ones that are forming in some sort of community, or at least maintain the fiction that nothing is really changing.

Hence, "civic nationalism", the acceptable face of nationhood. <i>Anyone</i> can be British, as long as they conform to British values (such as civic nationalism, openness to diversity, tolerance of other cultures, and the usual question begging platitudes).

The people are not exactly enthusiastic about this. They would prefer their traditional understanding of nationhood, just as they would prefer their traditional understanding of the state (as a nation state, - not a satrapy of an international trading block - grounded in a shared ethnic identity).

They can't have either, as it happens. True nationhood is exclusive by definition, hence unthinkable and impermissible according to the liberal consensus. The nation state makes little sense without a nation to attach to (it certainly makes little <i>moral</i> sense), and in any case, has already been superseded by the process of globalisation, understood to be a sort of naturalistic fact that cannot be altered, only accepted and managed with varying degrees of success.
 

luka

Well-known member
Apart from vimothys dark allusions to 'the people' he's so obviously right that he's basically just spouting truisms. You lot are mad. Globalisation doesn't exist cos of keep calm and carry on posters? Leave it out

I can only assume 'the people' means I, Vimothy.
 
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