Benny Bunter
Well-known member
You see pimps can go around calling themselves "sex workers" these days, very convenient.
prostitution
- Thread starter Benny Bunter
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Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Yeah, funny isn't it? :slanted:
sufi
lala
thanks, I did that
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/assemb...ions-and-support-for-victims-bill-uglymugsie/
Not that it shows that "UM are pimps", but there are clearly some strong connections to convicted pimps.
(& it's kind of like while Escort Ireland reviews "escorts", UM reviews punters).
Sadly, UM's "harm reduction" aspect must be undermined by that blatant link, but UM is still hopefully a useful service in identifying violent punters?
What about UK UM? I reckon you said the same about them in the past? I dug around but didn't find the same sort of links
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
According to this Irish former sex worker, "Escort Ireland is an advertising service specifically for the sex industry, no more, no less." And she's actually quite critical of it. It does at any rate clearly operate within the law, which would not be the case if it were actually a pimp network.
All this is by the by the bye, though, next to the obvious fact that criminalising paying for sex does not "save women from prostitution" but merely forces them to drastically lower both their rates and their client standards, making them poorer and more vulnerable to assault, robbery and exploitation by pimps (real ones!) offering them 'protection'.
I mean, I notice you haven't actually debunked the fact of an increase in anti-prostitute violence in Ireland but have simply cast aspersions about the source of the information.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
You've linked to Gaye Dalton's blog, who among other cronies in the pro sex trade lobby like Laura Lee, has been involved in a disgusting smear campaign against Rachel Moran over the years, claiming that she is a fraud and was never prostituted (since thoroughly debunked) . I know you don't follow these things very closely and are just trying to win an argument, but you really couldn't have picked a much more unreliable source, which actually illustrates my point quite well - the lies just fall out of these people's mouths.
Peter McCormick & son have both been convicted for organising prostitution both with their website Escort Ireland and in brothels across Ireland. They have now had to relocate the business to Spain and reportedly turned over $6 million last year. The johns can 'rate' the women and leave disgusting comments about them.
Plus it would be very hard to read the link that sufi helpfully googled for us about ugly mugs ie and not come out feeling deeply worried. Tust me, this is not a hill you want to die on.
droid
Well-known member
...
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
I don't think it is a "fact", havent seen or not aware of any reliable figures.
droid
Well-known member
The Gardai - not an organisation with a historical proclivity to sympathy to sex workers - seem to think the claims are credible and has assigned two guards to take reports specifically on this issue. Even pro-criminalisation organisations acknowledge there has been a rise in violence.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...cks-on-sex-workers-since-law-change-1.3208370
Also, if this is correct you are almost certainly libelling Lucy Smyth.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...cks-on-sex-workers-since-law-change-1.3208370
Also, if this is correct you are almost certainly libelling Lucy Smyth.
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droid
Well-known member
Here is an account of Smyths involvement in a rape case against a sex worker.
https://www.headstuff.org/topical/sex-workers-ireland/
I don't know what connection she has to other organisations, but it seems, at least that she is working to improve safety for Irish Sex Workers.
https://www.headstuff.org/topical/sex-workers-ireland/
I don't know what connection she has to other organisations, but it seems, at least that she is working to improve safety for Irish Sex Workers.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
So still no reliable figures then and I have absolutely no reason to trust ugly mugs ie.
Organisations in favour of the new law have put out a statement urging the necessity
Of properly enforcing it, which sort of goes without saying really.
The sex trade industry has and will continue to lie, manipulate, lie about sex trade survivors and sink to the very lowest depths in order to protect their massive profits - this includes setting up and funding organisations fronted by women to say they like it, they're empowered by it, act as their mouthpieces.
Peter McCormick also funded the turn off the blue light campaign against the sex buyers law in Ireland.
By all accounts the lobbies in Ireland receive a shitload of George Soros Open Society funding too so what does that tell you?
It's all as shady as fuck.
Organisations in favour of the new law have put out a statement urging the necessity
Of properly enforcing it, which sort of goes without saying really.
The sex trade industry has and will continue to lie, manipulate, lie about sex trade survivors and sink to the very lowest depths in order to protect their massive profits - this includes setting up and funding organisations fronted by women to say they like it, they're empowered by it, act as their mouthpieces.
Peter McCormick also funded the turn off the blue light campaign against the sex buyers law in Ireland.
By all accounts the lobbies in Ireland receive a shitload of George Soros Open Society funding too so what does that tell you?
It's all as shady as fuck.
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droid
Well-known member
Definitely something shady here I agree.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well according to the Irish Times, which as far as I know is not a front for a shadowy conspiracy of pimps, even Ruhama, which supports the new law, has confirmed a rise in violence against Irish sex workers. (Although they claim it's not connected - I don't know on what basis - but it's clearly not made sex work any safer, at the very least.)
[Edit: I see droid's already posted the same link]
Moreover, I just don't see how it isn't immediately obvious that making it illegal to pay for sex is going to make sex work much less lucrative and much more dangerous. It is, in a word, the one thing guaranteed to make life harder for sex workers. And even if some of them do eventually just decide it's not worth it any more, what are they supposed to do then? Pluck a well paid, secure job out of the air?
I suspect this would be obvious to you too if you could bring yourself to think about the issue and economic and legal terms for a few minutes, rather than leaping straight to a position of absolute dogmatic moralism.
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Benny Bunter
Well-known member
What's up, Tea? You forgot to call me a victorian prude this time round. God forbid that someone should have a firm moral position on the subject of sexual exploitation though.
One of the essential components of the nordic model, as you would well know if you understood it, is to provide exit services and alternatives for prostituted women.
And please don't talk to me about not bringing myself to think about the economic and legal terms. You're talking to someone who has done extensive reading on the global sex trade over the last couple of years and tries to keep up as much as possible with what's going on. I don't just google up random blog posts to back up my received opinions and "common sense" assumptions, unlike you. And I certainly don't take anything the sex industry says at face value, unlike you.
One of the essential components of the nordic model, as you would well know if you understood it, is to provide exit services and alternatives for prostituted women.
And please don't talk to me about not bringing myself to think about the economic and legal terms. You're talking to someone who has done extensive reading on the global sex trade over the last couple of years and tries to keep up as much as possible with what's going on. I don't just google up random blog posts to back up my received opinions and "common sense" assumptions, unlike you. And I certainly don't take anything the sex industry says at face value, unlike you.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Then we're in a rather paradoxical situation whereby I don't doubt that you know more about this issue than I do, but at the same time, you remain unable to convince me that you're right and I'm wrong. For a start, you haven't debunked the fact of the increase in anti-SW violence in Ireland - merely flung mud at the people reporting this fact (which, as I've said, includes people who are on your side). Then I've made the argument that this is inevitable because it reduces overall demand while failing to filter out (and perhaps even attracting) the outright criminal element, forcing sex workers to lower both their prices and their standards for clientele. All you've done is dismiss this as "common sense", again without actually explaining why its wrong.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
One small organisation like ruhama acknowledging there had been "a spate of attacks" last year is not the same as saying that violence against prostituted women has increased as a direct result of the new sex buyers law. Far from it.
So no, it's not a "fact" and i'm not about to argue against it as if it was.
Violence against women is inherent to prostitution (which all these "harm reduction" arguments tacitly acknowledge). The idea of the nordic model is to abolish an industry that is toxic and allow those trapped within it to leave safely and find other options because their lives are worth more than that, not perpetuate it.
Imagine, say, a logging industry that is a disaster for the environment and is built on virtual slave labour. You don't argue for paying the exploited workers more money, you argue for abolishing a toxic industry and support the workers by providing other job opportunities and exit services.
The pimps and punters are the ones responsible for all the damage prostitution does and it is there that we need to put our focus if we mean to end this massive human rights abuse that we have.
So no, it's not a "fact" and i'm not about to argue against it as if it was.
Violence against women is inherent to prostitution (which all these "harm reduction" arguments tacitly acknowledge). The idea of the nordic model is to abolish an industry that is toxic and allow those trapped within it to leave safely and find other options because their lives are worth more than that, not perpetuate it.
Imagine, say, a logging industry that is a disaster for the environment and is built on virtual slave labour. You don't argue for paying the exploited workers more money, you argue for abolishing a toxic industry and support the workers by providing other job opportunities and exit services.
The pimps and punters are the ones responsible for all the damage prostitution does and it is there that we need to put our focus if we mean to end this massive human rights abuse that we have.
What if he's got cerebral palsy or Treacher Collins and can't get a shag any other way?
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
I'd say, as far as they are interested at all, it seems that historically their sympathies have been with the punters, and this is what needs to change and will take tiiiime.
Rachel moran was on telly the other day saying much more needs to be done to enforce the new law and visibilise it to the public. She says they've only arrested two punters in ireland compared to around 1000 (iirc) in france in its first year and there is very low public awareness of new law in ireland. A properly funded campaign is needed.
Also, apparently the gardai havent been keeping figures on prostitution-specific reported violent crimes against women so we wont be getting any statistics of the type discussed here from them anytime soon. Big fail on their part.
She also made the point that you can be fined much more for letting your dog shit in the street than sex buying in ireland. Priorities :slanted:
So theres a long way to go, this is only the beginning. There has to be a veritable sea change in attitudes for the law to work, this is only the first step.