luka

Well-known member
i hope that helps move us along a bit. there was one other thing i thought needed clarifying, and that is monocausal thinking, one dimensional thinking and determinism. Reich's Orgasm is a good example. Mcluhan's technological determinism is another. Marx's economics. Terry Mckenna thinking drugs are the prime agent of historical and evolutionary development. Explaining all things in terms of one thing is the basic error. it's reductionist and not holistic.

the situation is always expressed in every dimension and every manifestation.
 
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luka

Well-known member
the avant-garde is now is new, the moment is unprecedented.

there are opportunities inherent in the now which have never been previously realisable.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Passive-aggressive much? I'm not panickied - this so far exists as a thread on a message board, if you were trying to set up a therapy practice or apocalyptic cult (what's the difference?) and recruit me I might be. My main point would be you can go a long way with just body and breath - a lot further than most people realise - and acid and related compounds are "strong medicine"and as you say, the abuse potential is huuuggee.

That being said, LSD/therapy research is being carried out once more though so maybe the time for this will come around again.

NCBI studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5603820/
MAPS research: https://maps.org/research/psilo-lsd
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Have you read much Peter Redgrove btw Luka? I wouldn't call his work psychedelic as such, though it's certainly got the hint of the other about it. His work was very much driven by his unconscious, in that it was the expression of deep rooted fetishes.
 

luka

Well-known member
i acknowledged the validity of your fears. if that strikes you as passive aggressive i don't know what to say. i find it useful to engage with criticism. i make a point of it. when i first encounter it my first instinct is to thrash around but later, usually the next day, i can accept it and realise that there is almost always a grain of truth in it.
 

luka

Well-known member
i've read the black goddess. i like it a lot. i own a copy. his poetry on the other hand i think is without merit.
 

luka

Well-known member
you struck me as panicked. i sensed a real and quite intense physical and emotional discomfort.
that could have been my imagination and of course we all like to pretend that none of this matters,
that we are perfectly disinterested and disengaged.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
you struck me as panicked. i sensed a real and quite intense physical and emotional discomfort.
that could have been my imagination and of course we all like to pretend that none of this matters,
that we are perfectly disinterested and disengaged.

Even if I were inclined to take this at face value, I'd still have to say it was your imagination, I'm afraid. Receiving psychic impressions of other posters psychic and physical states seems to fit an LSD-inspired thread, I guess.
I did once try some internet based telepathy experiments with someone in the US who I'd never met. IIRC mine never worked - always thought I'm about as psychic as a brick - but she seemed to get something.
 

luka

Well-known member
im inclined to assume words convey information but it's not important.

you received a psychic impression of passive-aggression i received a psychic impression of panic and distress.

only it's not psychic, it's called reading!

seems the thread is dead. some resistance encountered but mostly indifference. i'll note it down in my research log.
 
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luka

Well-known member
in the interests of transparency i'll explain my workings

these are the posts which gave me the impression of panic and distress. i discerned a shrillness which i associate with hysteria.

Have you ever ready Reich on mysticism? There's something very ungrounded about the absence of boundaries implied here, just opening up the psyche and letting rip. Notions like the collective unconscious have long been critiqued for giving a free pass to fascism.

an uncritical acceptance of every kind of cosmic idea, an inflated sense of self-importance because of occult forces ("gods" or "angels") interfering with one's life, an over-reliance on the astral plane, and a contempt for this life and the body.

what I think you're doing here - being really uncritical about a nebulously defined "consciousness-raising".

I've found the Jungian-derived models conspicuous by their absence thus my training so far

Depends on what your goal is really - great art and poetry via psychedelia meeting the avant arde or something else curative and therapeutic? Maybe I'm in the wrong place addressing the latter but there's been wild slippage towards it upthread

i also noticed the two references to Jung. I haven't mentioned Jung. Padraig called me a crypto-Jungian when he was upset with me and I disowned the tag. Playing into it (and ignoring the irony of Reich being even more verboten than Jung in contemporary therapy circles) and bolstering it is very telling in itself. Unconscious, yes, almost certainly, but telling.

i'm being accused of an awful lot here, from insufficient orgiastic potency to schizophrenia to a contempt for this life and the body to a complete absence of boundaries.

and how are we to interpret the introduction of Redgrove? I suggest you think about what that might signal. this is all basic awareness, really the foundations of therapeutic practice.

i think it's important, as i said earlier, for you to voice concerns you may have and i'm glad to have heard them but let's not get into gaslighting territory. for my part yes, i get frustrated when i encounter resistance, as many of us do, and of course that frustration and impatience is discernible in my voice.
you dont need to be psychic to hear it, you need to be literate.

i want to revivify culture. i want artists to understand that they are exploring and building within a real space, that what they do counts, is vitally important and world-changing, that it creates the realities we come to occupy, that imagination is not the same as fantasy, but something far vaster and mysterious and awe-full. this is what i mean by reuniting the psychedelic with the avant-garde. both should inform the other. it is space exploration, the voyage to the stars. that's where we're going.
 

luka

Well-known member
i think we can have much more fun here if we create together. that doesn't mean jettisoning all criticism it just means using critical thought in the service of building with a greater degree of structural integrity.
 

luka

Well-known member
on the occasions i can get enough of you to play with me, on the dematerialisation thread for instance, this place works a treat. that is what i want to impose. it doesn't mean agreeing with me on everything it just means not being obstructionist or diversionary.
 

luka

Well-known member
it means acting in good faith and giving the best of yourself. taking time to think and really extending your imagination and perception. if we can all do that, and give one another the benefit of the doubt, wherever there is doubt, then we can build the compound together.
 

Leo

Well-known member
sounds wonderful. alas, real life intrudes. haven't had the time/energy/brainpower to backtrack through discussions that add five new pages of comments in an hour. and simply jumping in at whatever point could be fine or a fool's game (arguing points that have already been debated, etc.). a few of these threads have generated some of the best reading I've done on this forum in ages, good stuff, thanks. some of it comes off as convoluted logic/nonsense but that's ok, the cost of doing business.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
think this really got waylaid with psychotherapy etc, the initial references were well-meaning

not that it's unrelated - the Surrealist Manifesto after all heavily references Freud

but no one was advancing the case for medicinal psychedelics, or for any kind of individual therapeutic mechanism

we're not talking about granular level anyway - the individual psychedelic experience is only useful here insomuch as it informs personal views on the general topic
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
1) we’ve got the idea that large swathes of ‘psychedelia’ is hackneyed at this point; it’s empty signifiers and gesturing. what elements of it are? how did they become that way? why have alex grey and tie-shirts run their course? in contrast, why has william blake not?

2) that speaks to the broader question of what has society for the most part taken on board from previous incarnations of psychedelia; what no longer needs repeating or emphasising?

3) can you articulate what we’re missing at the moment? what should art be putting out there it’s currently not?

4) dream of how it could do that. what would a music or poetry or film whatever be doing when it marries psychedelia with the avant garde?


1) working off OP - presumption is that avant-garde and psychedelic traditions in art have lost both their creative drive and nearly all of their social relevance

the causal and temporal relationships between those losses - internal and external - are harder to discern

part of is normal progressions - sclerotic hardening of artistic potentialities into narrower formalism, recuperative commodification and capture

but speaking of those as traditions rather than simply genres requires a deeper explanation

to turn your question around - what changes in society have made it less open to cultural influence from the psychedelic and avant-garde traditions?

some ideas have been offered - postmodernism (loss of meaning), social-political-economic upheaval, technological disruption

need to distinguish between signifiers and the tradition itself - that will explain the continuing relevance of Blake etc

2) see 1

3) the tension between the potential and the realized, known and uknowable, etc

loosely what luka refers to as the Mysteries - strongly in favor of the term btw, assuming a conscious/accurate reference to the mystery cults of antiquity

4) that's what we're trying to discover
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
one more thing @danny - I misunderstood "is psychedelia inherently good?" to be referring to aesthetics rather than virtue

I do think expanding potential is virtuous in that sense, yes

certainly it's correct to heed the danger - personal and political - always present in opening oneself up

it's maybe the single oldest human cautionary tale - Adam + Eve, Odin trading his eye for wisdom etc

there's always a price to be paid

keep in mind the drugs are just a tool albeit yes a very powerful one
 
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