john eden

male pale and stale
Hey John! I admit the magic discussion was a bit unfair - I actually have far more interesting things to say on the topic, I promise :)

Well I will wait for the book ;)

It seems to me that the sex/gender issue you speak of has been even more polarising than fascism in recent years (certainly in terms of some parts of the left in London and around the UK).

Many people I know have lost friends over it and it's hard to see how it can be resolved in the short term. My guess is that we probably wouldn't agree on some significant intractable points.

Clearly there is discussion going on about it though, relentless and horrible and toxic though it is.
 

Nina

Active member
I am not sure there is that much discussion allowed - I said very little in public: one facebook post that tried to take a middle-line onthe question of rights, definitions, women's history etc. but that was enough to get me accused of being a Nazi and have people who I regarded as friends denounce me without a second thought. Similarly, in the wake of MeToo, we saw some men punished absurdly for minor things (or even nothing), and removed from social life as if they were supposed to just disappear in a puff of smoke. The left is not a kind place to be - it runs on outrage, coercion, anti-thought and absurb in-group/out-group logic. These days it seems to me it is very far removed from ideas of justice, equality, dialogue and redistribution.
 

droid

Well-known member
Hi all - interesting to read through this thread. I agree with vimothy's diagnosis. What strikes me as extraordinary in terms of how the contemporary 'left' operate is its relentlessly authoritarian nature, its unwilingness to discuss topics of concern to everyone, its division of people into groups who can speak and groups who can, its relentless logic of identity and anti-solidarity (not to mention calling for people to lose their jobs, be punched in the street etc.). Since being denounced by people too cowardly to speak to me in person, losing work etc., after raising questions on the sex/gender issue, I have come to realise just how much the left relies on mantras, bullying, guilt and moralism to keep people in line. It makes no sense to me to say we can't talk to those we disagree with, that they must be socially excluded - we will never understand anything by shunning people, let alone be able to reason our way through various political issues. The contemporary 'left' is not one I recognise.

The history, logic and impetus of radical, and sometimes violent opposition to fascism is nothing new or difficult to understand. It should not be conflated with other issues around outrage culture.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I am not sure there is that much discussion allowed - I said very little in public: one facebook post that tried to take a middle-line onthe question of rights, definitions, women's history etc. but that was enough to get me accused of being a Nazi and have people who I regarded as friends denounce me without a second thought. Similarly, in the wake of MeToo, we saw some men punished absurdly for minor things (or even nothing), and removed from social life as if they were supposed to just disappear in a puff of smoke. The left is not a kind place to be - it runs on outrage, coercion, anti-thought and absurb in-group/out-group logic. These days it seems to me it is very far removed from ideas of justice, equality, dialogue and redistribution.

Well I think we can disagree about the quality of the discussion but sometimes there seems to be little else going on in my twitter feed.

The left is not a monolith. None of this will crop up at the AGM of my union branch next week. I'm involved with a reading group of disparate people, many of whom are yer Goldsmiths types and we've so far managed to discuss a whole heap of things without anyone being denounced as a Nazi.

It's hard to discuss the social deletion of men without getting into specifics. You and I both know that part of the left have been an absolute joke at dealing with rapists in the past though.

Edit - I'm not saying you haven't had a shit time recently Nina - I've not really been following all this but I accept that you've been at the rough end of it.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I work with someone who helped contain the Ebola outbreak in Africa a couple of years back...

OK, but suppose the standard and accepted method for preventing the spread of ebola wasn't proving very effective. Suppose there was, in fact, evidence that it was making the problem worse. If someone were to point out that you can't stop ebola simply by punching it, are they therefore on ebola's side? I say this because I understand there are de-radicalization programmes that have had success in turning fascists into non-fascists by doing exactly what you advocate not doing - talking to them.

Would anyone on the left seriously recommend just punching young men who'd got involved in Islamist extremism until they were cured of it? Or might there, just maybe, be some mileage in trying to find out from them how they'd got involved in it? And if so, why does this apply to young men from Muslim backgrounds and not young white men?

And on a purely practical level, if you're going to reject any approach other than direct physical confrontation then it comes down to whose side includes includes the most power-lifters and MMA practitioners - and, in the USA, gun owners - and I think we all know the answer to that. If it didn't work in Germany in the early '30s then is there any reason to think it'll work any better today?
 
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Nina

Active member
The history, logic and impetus of radical, and sometimes violent opposition to fascism is nothing new or difficult to understand. It should not be conflated with other issues around outrage culture.

But there's a problem when the word 'fascist' just gets chucked at anyone and everything for minor disagreements/even the desire to discuss something. Coupled with the 'punch a Nazi' logic it means that someone who was a 'comrade' yesterday is fair game for violence today. Who are the people deciding who gets called a Nazi? There is a distinctly authoritarian and coercive use of this word today that has nothing to do with fighting fascism historically. It is alienating vast nubers of people from the left - who themselves are running scared of being denounced themselves so get their denunciation in first...and so it goes...the logic of scapegoating and fragile groups...
 

droid

Well-known member
Sure, that is a problem, but when it comes to physical opposition to the likes of Richard Spencer and his ilk, I don't think that issue arises. Those who oppose no-platforming and various other confrontational tactics must acknowledge that there are situations where direct action is justified - and necessary.
 

Nina

Active member
Sure, that is a problem, but when it comes to physical opposition to the likes of Richard Spencer and his ilk, I don't think that issue arises. Those who oppose no-platforming and various other confrontational tactics must acknowledge that there are situations where direct action is justified - and necessary.

I must confess I am not even sure it is a good tactic to punch people like Spencer. Its hard to see its political efficacy behind its spectacular effects. I think standing one's ground is very different from actively deciding who is a 'fascist' and smacking them on camera, or whatever. A woman meeting up to attend a meetin to discuss changes to legislation around sex was punched a while ago - was she a 'fascist' who deserved such action? These individual acts cannot but be spectacular and counter-productive to the cause. And since when has anyone's mind been changed from having been punched? If anything it would surely confirm that there are 'enemies' and 'friends' and deepen existing positions. The slow work of discussion and understanding is a different matter enitrely. People do not agree - how can we use reason and understanding to come to a different way of seeing the world together? It makes no sense to simply dismiss people as irredeemably unsalvagable ('evil fascists') as if this is simply who people are on some deep level and not positions adopted because they are trying to make sense of things (however badly). I am not sure the left has a good way of explaining where 'hate' comes from. But this is what we need to understand the most, lest we end up hating those we suspect of hating.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
For the record, it wasn't my laptop, but belonged to Sonic Acts. I guess they covered up the logo for copyright reasons for the videos. I don't imagine that putting a sticker over logo is an act of anything, as it goes...:)

OK, fair enough.

But there's a problem when the word 'fascist' just gets chucked at anyone and everything for minor disagreements/even the desire to discuss something. Coupled with the 'punch a Nazi' logic it means that someone who was a 'comrade' yesterday is fair game for violence today. Who are the people deciding who gets called a Nazi? There is a distinctly authoritarian and coercive use of this word today that has nothing to do with fighting fascism historically. It is alienating vast nubers of people from the left - who themselves are running scared of being denounced themselves so get their denunciation in first...and so it goes...the logic of scapegoating and fragile groups...

Yes, exactly. Obviously the widespread idea that "anti-fascists are the real fascists", or that the two sides are equivalent or as bad as each other, is fallacious - but it's not hard to see why the idea has taken root. Daniel/josef said that he was literally threatened with mutilation because of his involvement in the LD50 furore. It's hardly a stretch to think "Sounds like the sort of thing a fascist might say".
 
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droid

Well-known member
I must confess I am not even sure it is a good tactic to punch people like Spencer. Its hard to see its political efficacy behind its spectacular effects. I think standing one's ground is very different from actively deciding who is a 'fascist' and smacking them on camera, or whatever. A woman meeting up to attend a meetin to discuss changes to legislation around sex was punched a while ago - was she a 'fascist' who deserved such action? These individual acts cannot but be spectacular and counter-productive to the cause. And since when has anyone's mind been changed from having been punched? If anything it would surely confirm that there are 'enemies' and 'friends' and deepen existing positions. The slow work of discussion and understanding is a different matter enitrely. People do not agree - how can we use reason and understanding to come to a different way of seeing the world together? It makes no sense to simply dismiss people as irredeemably unsalvagable ('evil fascists') as if this is simply who people are on some deep level and not positions adopted because they are trying to make sense of things (however badly). I am not sure the left has a good way of explaining where 'hate' comes from. But this is what we need to understand the most, lest we end up hating those we suspect of hating.

I agree, resort to violence should not be taken lightly, but it seems that traditional antifa tactics are in fact, quite effective. Spencer and several other prominent alt-right figures have spoken publicly about how violent opposition, doxing etc. has crippled their ability to recruit and promulgate their ideas. Milo has been bankrupted by no platforming. it seems to me that what you're primarily objecting to is the mis-application of these tactics.

The liberal positions - let's listen, understand, discuss & persuade plays right into the hands of hardcore neo-nazis as it gives them a platform to push their ideas, which is precisely what they want, and need to grow (as we have seen in recent years). There's a wealth of analysis and history to back this up.

I certainly acknowledge the moral problems here, I wish it were possible to meet people in the middle and change their opinions through compassion, empathy and debate but IMO that is a deeply naive and dangerous position that fails to apprehend the nature of the beast and the seriousness of the situation.
 

Nina

Active member
It's good to be back - I have forgotten my 'Infinite Thought' login, but did come back here briefly after Mark's death. I've seen a few Dissensus people in person over the last few years, which has always been great. I can't remember why I stopped writing here in the first place - maybe some silly falling-out, but probably just more likely getting too busy with jobs and state stuff (Alfie's trials ended up taking years and years, and we're still miles away from getting any admission/compensation from the state of harm caused).

I take the point re urgency and how appeasement is not always an option. But I still need to understand for myself - in the first place - why it is that some people 'hate', what we mean by this word, where it comes from, how we counter hate (and who is the 'we' here? The 'left' that knows better not to hate - 'no compassion for the enemies of compassion' as David Cooper put it?). I have always found it too hasty to dismiss entire groups of people as somehow incomprehensible, as somehow 'not-listenable-to' - how would we know what they might say if we don't listen to them? What will they do next if no one listens? The dragnet of 'fascist' has become so wide in recent years I am not even sure people know what they mean by it...it's such a powerful word, and so many possible actions are opened/legitimised by its use - 'well of course it's ok she got punched, she's just a Nazi'. It may well be that I am taking up some kind of Habermasian liberal recognition psition here, but I've seen too many hasty things in recent years backed up with the flimsiest of justifications (Nazi, fascist, Terf) where the aggression of the person doing to denouncing/action is never in question. We are all capable of violence and hatred, for sure. Deciding when to deploy the former and when to feel the latter - or even if one should feel the latter, what it is, how it feels - is not so easy.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
It is absolutely essential and effective to punch Richard Spencer.

I haven't got the figures with me right now but there were markedly less public alt-right rallies in the US in 2018 than there were in 2017 when Charlottesville happened. That is a result. A result paid for in prison sentences for some anti-fascists and the death of Heather Heyer.

Fascism has violence at its core. If you counter fascism solely with ideas you will lose. If you counter fascism solely with violence you will lose.

I have seen the effects of outright neo-nazis such as Blood & Honour being left alone. They just get bolder.

Where I have some sympathy with Nina is that physical opposition to fascism is not a one-size fits all solution. People wearing No Remorse "Hitler Was Right" t-shirts should be punched. People wearing Death In June t-shirts should be challenged, wound up and mocked in the first instance.

There is some overlap with the more bonkers fringes of the anti-trans movement and the far right, but longstanding feminists being for example physically removed from anarchist spaces by men is not a good look - even if they have allegedly gone there with the sole purpose of winding people up.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I must confess I am not even sure it is a good tactic to punch people like Spencer. Its hard to see its political efficacy behind its spectacular effects. I think standing one's ground is very different from actively deciding who is a 'fascist' and smacking them on camera, or whatever. A woman meeting up to attend a meetin to discuss changes to legislation around sex was punched a while ago - was she a 'fascist' who deserved such action? These individual acts cannot but be spectacular and counter-productive to the cause. And since when has anyone's mind been changed from having been punched? If anything it would surely confirm that there are 'enemies' and 'friends' and deepen existing positions. The slow work of discussion and understanding is a different matter enitrely. People do not agree - how can we use reason and understanding to come to a different way of seeing the world together? It makes no sense to simply dismiss people as irredeemably unsalvagable ('evil fascists') as if this is simply who people are on some deep level and not positions adopted because they are trying to make sense of things (however badly). I am not sure the left has a good way of explaining where 'hate' comes from. But this is what we need to understand the most, lest we end up hating those we suspect of hating.

People get involved with far right politics for all sorts of reasons, some social, some psychological and some ideological. It is undeniable that part of the fun is being a bully. Being the badman with a swastika who can walk around menacingly. One of the first tasks of militant anti-fascism is to spoil this fun and thereby separate the hardcore ideologues from the weekend Nazis.

Most people don't like being hit. Some people don't mind it so much if it is part of an adrenaline rush where they get to hit people too. Some people think it's a price worth paying as part of a political process.

So being hit might not change someone's mind in terms of ideology but certainly can and does change their mind about whether they should be a bully. If you remove those people from the pool that Nazis swim in, you are left with the hardcore - violence junkies and dyed in the wool Hitler-worshippers.

People get involved with far left politics for all sorts of reasons, some social, some psychological and some ideological. There is generally less emphasis on being a bully, but we're not immune from that either - albeit more about intellectual superiority than fisticuffs.

Wilhelm Reich is still a decent enough place to look for why people hate.

After Darren Osborne was jailed for life for attempting to kill Muslims in Finsbury Park by driving his van into them, two things emerged:

Firstly, he had been a big fan of Tommy Robinson and had exchanged DMs with him.

Secondly, there was a revealing piece on his background in one of the papers where a neighbour stated “He had lived on the estate for a few years. He's always been a complete cunt but this is really surprising,”

There will be all kinds of academic studies into Osborne and the wider movement he was part of. I can't help feeling that the outcomes will be of little practical value for anti-fascists. You don't counter someone who wants to drive a van all the way from Wales and kill Muslims with a nice chat. Some people are just cunts.

Where we need to be is talking to his neighbours.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Fascism has violence at its core. If you counter fascism solely with ideas you will lose. If you counter fascism solely with violence you will lose.

OK, fine, this is all I was saying earlier, really. If it's got to the level of far-right marchers physically threatening people and the police failing to protect those under threat, then punch away. That's all good.

My point was that many people who start down this trajectory before they reach the level of wearing "Hitler was right" T-shirts and going out looking for people to beat up might be saved from ending up like that if they aren't branded as irredeemable from the very outset.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Still waiting for droid to post a link to a Guardian article about why Nazis are OK really.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
tommy.jpg

The segment—part of Left Field, NBC‘s video documentary vertical—is a gratuitous piece of embedded journalism that does little to challenge the claims made by Proud Boy talking heads, such as “there’s a mainstream societal attack on being hetero cis white men.” The piece allowed multiple Proud Boys to spout off their brand of racist and sexist talking points with zero context; arguments that Muslims are uniquely sinister and women should go back to being housewives were advanced with no pushback from other sources or NBC itself.

https://www.alternet.org/2017/11/why-did-nbc-broadcast-puff-piece-white-supremacist-group/

Richard Spencer uses chopsticks to deftly pluck slivers of togarashi-crusted ahi from a rectangular plate. He is sitting in the Continental-style lounge of the Firebrand Hotel, near his home in the upscale resort town of Whitefish, Montana, discussing a subject not typically broached in polite company. “Race is something between a breed and an actual species,” he says, likening the differences between whites and people of color to those between golden retrievers and basset hounds. “It’s that powerful.”

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/richard-spencer-trump-alt-right-white-nationalist/

BNP leader Nick Griffin says that "one of the symptoms of being English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh is being white".

He also tells Jeremy Paxman that he would bring back capital punishment and would send serious offenders to a penal colony in South Georgia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8642563.stm
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

The latter, obviously, but when a rhetorical questions asks "A... or B?", the implication is usually "It's B".


OK, so that Mother Jones piece is arguably a bit arse-kissy in the first couple of paragraphs, but even then it explicitly calls Spencer a racist, which he's apparently at pains to deny, and if it describes him as presentable and urbane then by all accounts that's a big part of why he's 'succeeded' (to the extent that he has) where a 20-stone biker with a Rick Rubin beard and SS tattoos probably wouldn't have. And it certainly doesn't sympathise with is his ideology at all.

The BBC is link is no way a "puff piece" - it's a factual two-line description of a video (which doesn't work anyway). You could say the state broadcaster shouldn't be giving the likes of Griffin a platform at all, and I'm inclined to agree, but that's not the same thing. And whatever you think of Paxman, I can hardly imagine him giving an absurd bigoted charlatan like Griffin an easy time of it in an interview.

And the other piece isn't a primary source, it's a hatchet job on another article with a few cherry-picked quotes. Plus a site as partisan as Alternet is going to consider any article on the alt-right that stops short of "Richard Spencer and everyone associated with him should be summarily executed" as "pro-fascist".

So no, I reject this idea that all liberals have a massive hard-on for fascists. I think it's ludicrous and it's probably helping, not hindering, the far right. In fact it sounds a lot like the way American reactionaries use the words "liberal" and "communist" interchangeably.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ha!

“The alt-right is in a way conservatives who don’t have anything to conserve anymore,” Spencer told the crowd of mostly DC reporters, now assembled in a nearby hotel lounge. Lamenting the decay and degeneracy of modern America, he decried as “total hokum nonsense” the idea that America’s Founding Fathers thought all races were created equal.

Proof, I suppose, that even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
 

Leo

Well-known member
people like Milo, Alex Jones, McInnes, Bannon and the rest is that these people are making a living from and base their entire 'brand' around opposing the left.

I wish it wasn't so but this is so spot on. what incentive would they ever have to listen respectfully to a counterargument and say "hmm, you may have a point there." forget about their belief systems, it would undercut their means of making a living.
 
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