john eden
male pale and stale
my point is that the American cops are perfectly able to brutalise people without outside help.
ETA: don’t die from shock but I was agreeing with you!
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Jeremy Corbyn
- Thread starter glasshand
- Start date
my point is that the American cops are perfectly able to brutalise people without outside help.
ETA: don’t die from shock but I was agreeing with you!
Thanks for the wall of links. The first one contains a link to a PDF called Deadly Exchange which I am actually going to endeavour to read, see if it changes my mind.I guess thats all settled then.
How the US and Israel exchange tactics in violence and control
Two decades of Israeli-US police cooperation includes training in racial profiling and violent suppression of protests.www.aljazeera.com
Israeli forces trained cops in ‘restraint techniques’ at Minneapolis conference
Officers from the U.S. police force responsible for the killing of George Floyd received training in restraint techniques and anti-terror tactics from Israeli law enforcement officers.www.peoplesworld.org
George Floyd killing highlights issue of US police training in Israel
The ADL sponsors trainings of US law enforcement officials in Israel, even as it says George Floyd murder exposes “systemic racism” in the U.S.mondoweiss.net
Joint US-Israel Police & Law Enforcement Training
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
U.S. Police are Being Trained by Israel—And Communities of Color Are Paying the Price
In recent years, Georgia has experienced troubling trends in fatal police shootings. As this has unfolded, the state continues to pursue a “police exchange” program with the state of Israel.progressive.org
US police departments under pressure to end training programmes with Israel
Two decades of Israeli-US police cooperation includes training in racial profiling, counter terrorism and suppressing protestswww.middleeasteye.net
Israel Security Forces Are Training American Cops Despite History of Rights Abuses
Police training in Israel organized by lobby groups, like the ADL, introduce U.S. cops to militarized security forces that abuse Palestinians' rights.theintercept.com
droid
Well-known member
I think wall of links is an adequate reply to random tweet.
You seem to have made your mind up pretty quickly considering (and correct me if Im wrong) you probably only encountered this issue for the first time today, despite the fact that its part of a nearly 20 year collaborative security and training project in a decades long continuum of Israeli logistical and training support for numerous repressive regimes across the globe, which is in itself part of a wider tradition of occupying powers experimenting on captive populations and then exporting their innovations for profit.
You seem to have made your mind up pretty quickly considering (and correct me if Im wrong) you probably only encountered this issue for the first time today, despite the fact that its part of a nearly 20 year collaborative security and training project in a decades long continuum of Israeli logistical and training support for numerous repressive regimes across the globe, which is in itself part of a wider tradition of occupying powers experimenting on captive populations and then exporting their innovations for profit.
john eden
male pale and stale
The problem here is that there are several conversations going on at once.
Maxine’s specific point was incorrect and contextually weird.
That doesn’t mean that the wider issue - that her supporters think she was trying to make - about Israel training other states in techniques to suppress their or other citizens, is incorrect.
Or that RLB should be sacked for retweeting her.
But weird introductions about incorrect things about Israel into unrelated conversations is bad form at best.
Maxine’s specific point was incorrect and contextually weird.
That doesn’t mean that the wider issue - that her supporters think she was trying to make - about Israel training other states in techniques to suppress their or other citizens, is incorrect.
Or that RLB should be sacked for retweeting her.
But weird introductions about incorrect things about Israel into unrelated conversations is bad form at best.
droid
Well-known member
Sure, but her critics and the anti-Corbyn lobby are being deeply disingenuous by seizing on that one point (kneeling came from Israel) to then claim that the relationship between Israeli security forces and US police is completely innocent and has not influenced the policing of minorities in the US.
...and to Jon's point I would add, one thing I have encountered *a lot* is people invoking the dread hand of Israel where it is not. See the tweet I posted above. Every nefarious activity in the world gets blamed on the Israeli state in a way that just reproduces classic antisemitic tropes - critics of Corbyn being in the pay of Israel is the first one that comes to mind. Moreover, I doubt Maxine Peake had given the issue much more than a tweet's worth of thought before she was happy to reproduce it - she has since retracted her original statement.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Fair enough! It's a new experience for me, that's all.
droid
Well-known member
Im just astounded that people are still banging the drum after so much of this has been revealed to be a complete scam, an almost text book example of the weaponisation of anti-semitism, documented repeatedly in multiple contexts and now deployed again in hysterical denunciations the sole purpose of which seems to be to purge the remnants of Labour left by a leader who openly proclaims himself to be a zionist.
A lot of people on the Left of the party, Corbyn's supporters, were loudly and vocally saying that there was *no* antisemitism in the party, and any attempts to raise the matter were a complete smear. Now material has arisen that implicates the Right, they're all clutching their pearls and saying what a terrible thing it was all along!
And for the record, most of allegations against Corbyn aren't about personal anti-semitism. They're about the way that him and his team deliberately broke the complaints system to protect personal friends. This was the gist of the Panorama documentary, which up until about a month ago was a complete fabrication according to Corbynite Twitter (and you'll never guess who some of alleged was behind this....).
And for the record, most of allegations against Corbyn aren't about personal anti-semitism. They're about the way that him and his team deliberately broke the complaints system to protect personal friends. This was the gist of the Panorama documentary, which up until about a month ago was a complete fabrication according to Corbynite Twitter (and you'll never guess who some of alleged was behind this....).
droid
Well-known member
The panorama doc was an absolute travesty, a transparent political hatchet job, and you do realise that the post election investigation showed that Corbyn's political opponents in the labour party were deliberately deceiving Corbyn, fucking with the complaints procedure in order to make him look bad and then leaking to the press in order to amplify anti-semitism smears?
This is done and dusted. It may have dangerously devalued the entire idea of anti-semitism and helped usher in probably the most virulently racist government in post war Britain, but it worked, there's no need to keep up the pretense.
www.mediareform.org.uk
This is done and dusted. It may have dangerously devalued the entire idea of anti-semitism and helped usher in probably the most virulently racist government in post war Britain, but it worked, there's no need to keep up the pretense.
Media Reform Coalition
Media Reform coordinates the work of advocacy groups campaigning to protect the public interest in light of the Leveson Inquiry and Communications Review.
www.mediareform.org.uk
Which one? The thing that came out a few days ago (Labour Together) or the leaked report put out by Formby et al? The latter was leaked against solictors advice, stuffed with unredacted personal information and exonerates the boss and allies of its authors. Unsurprisingly.
I have no problem believing the right of the Labour Party are a bunch of c*nts, but the idea that there was no fault on the other side is laughable.
I have no problem believing the right of the Labour Party are a bunch of c*nts, but the idea that there was no fault on the other side is laughable.
If Panorama was so bad, as your link claims why did Corbyn and co quietly drop their threatened complaints and legal action? It was the BBC. If it was a made up piece of shit they could press their case. But it wasn't and they have no case that'd stand up so they rely on wholly biased sniping like the link you've just posted.
I've read John Ware is suing the party for libel. No idea how far his case has got though.
I've read John Ware is suing the party for libel. No idea how far his case has got though.
droid
Well-known member
It was the leaked report, but IMO it didnt exonerate Corbyn per se, it provided firsthand evidence of the efforts made by the labour right to manipulate and amplify the anti-semitism smears, and in that sense its undeniable as all of the evidence was firsthand emails and various messages.
They dropped the complaint after ofcom rejected dozens of public complaints, presumably as there was no point in pursuing it in light of the BBC's appallingly craven political coverage in recent years, particularly in the run up to the last election.
I suggest you look at that piece again. Regardless of whether you believe the allegations, the BBC is supposed to be impartial and not a tool for political smears. That panorama was a disgrace and has been dissected multiple times.
I understand, you hate Corbyn and are so inclined to believe every accusation against him. Thats fine - but most of the anti-semitism stuff is just so crudely constructed and flimsy it begs the credibility of any of its exponents.
They dropped the complaint after ofcom rejected dozens of public complaints, presumably as there was no point in pursuing it in light of the BBC's appallingly craven political coverage in recent years, particularly in the run up to the last election.
I suggest you look at that piece again. Regardless of whether you believe the allegations, the BBC is supposed to be impartial and not a tool for political smears. That panorama was a disgrace and has been dissected multiple times.
I understand, you hate Corbyn and are so inclined to believe every accusation against him. Thats fine - but most of the anti-semitism stuff is just so crudely constructed and flimsy it begs the credibility of any of its exponents.
Working this AM so don't have time for a full response 'til later but as I said above, my problem with that report isn't its content but its provenance. It's authored IIRC by Jenny Formby, who was one of Corbyn's core team. As such, it's one sided - it reports lots of dirt on the Right but antisemitism from the Left of party and failures in Corbyn's response to it aren't addressed. To claim "well that's all done and dusted now" as you do above is patently false. It reminds me of how the Police Complaints authority always find there's not much of a case against 'em.
Stephen Bush in the New Statesman:
the report’s summary writes a cheque that its findings cannot cash.....
This report does not conclusively prove that argument. It collects what are alleged to be multiple and repeated examples of communication between senior staff at Labour HQ showing bitter and in some cases deeply personal opposition to Corbyn, his staff and his close parliamentary allies. But it doesn’t successfully draw a conclusive line between that behaviour and a deliberate attempt to sabotage Labour either in 2017 or in the battle against anti-Semitism.
The other reason I have for thinking that AS is a problem on the Left is simply the evidence of my own eyes. On pro-Corbyn Facebook groups, on Twitter, it's absolutely rife always accompanied by .conspiracism and denial, You normally can find an accusation that Margaret Hodge is working for Mossad by the 6th reply to anything she says. Momentum even put out a bloody video telling their followers to leave it out with the Rothschild stuff (a good effort on their part). Why would they do that if they weren't aware it was a big problem? And this shit starts at the top - Corbyn's career is full of conspiracism and you don't have to look far into his friends and allies to find full blown AS at happily at play, unchallenged. This is what Panorama was essentially about - attempts to expel or discipline these people consistently blocked and sabotaged by the Leader's Office. A one sided report does not erase this material from existence.
Stephen Bush in the New Statesman:
the report’s summary writes a cheque that its findings cannot cash.....
This report does not conclusively prove that argument. It collects what are alleged to be multiple and repeated examples of communication between senior staff at Labour HQ showing bitter and in some cases deeply personal opposition to Corbyn, his staff and his close parliamentary allies. But it doesn’t successfully draw a conclusive line between that behaviour and a deliberate attempt to sabotage Labour either in 2017 or in the battle against anti-Semitism.
The other reason I have for thinking that AS is a problem on the Left is simply the evidence of my own eyes. On pro-Corbyn Facebook groups, on Twitter, it's absolutely rife always accompanied by .conspiracism and denial, You normally can find an accusation that Margaret Hodge is working for Mossad by the 6th reply to anything she says. Momentum even put out a bloody video telling their followers to leave it out with the Rothschild stuff (a good effort on their part). Why would they do that if they weren't aware it was a big problem? And this shit starts at the top - Corbyn's career is full of conspiracism and you don't have to look far into his friends and allies to find full blown AS at happily at play, unchallenged. This is what Panorama was essentially about - attempts to expel or discipline these people consistently blocked and sabotaged by the Leader's Office. A one sided report does not erase this material from existence.
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I mean, you commented on my skepticism towards the claim that sparked off this conversation. Why do you think I'm skeptical of claims about Israel when they come from the Labour Left? My own ignorance about Israel as a state is part of it which I'll happily own, but it's also years and years of seeing the same thoughtless idiocy get a pass.
john eden
male pale and stale
Do you think, what with the weaponisation of anti-semitism, that clumsily and incorrectly suggesting that Israel is somehow connected to the death of George Floyd, is wise?
The politest possible interpretation of this is that Maxine Peake is simply a luvvie who is out of her depth and RLB is stupid for retweeting stuff without reading it properly when she must surely know that the guns are out for the Labour left.
A less charitable interpretation is that Peake is one of a good few people who, no matter what the issue, will try and bring in something about Israel. Which is mental and politically dumb.
droid
Well-known member
It doesn't matter. the private correspondence speaks for itself, and no one is claiming that it was falsified to my knowledge. We've had the entire British media and much of the political establishment making the case for the other side, whilst a politician who wrote a book that depicts Jews as controlling the media was elected prime minister.
Youre arguing against a strawman here. Im not claiming that there is no anti semitism on the left, or indeed in the Labour party. We've covered this ground numerous times.
droid
Well-known member
I know nothing about her TBH, but I imagine the source for her claims was Palestinian activists pointing out the parallels between IDF and US policing techniques, while it may have been incorrect to make linkages between specific methods, the fact remains that there has been significant cross-training and cooperation between American cops and Israeli security forces, including in the realms of public order and protest and this has been an issue of concern (for obvious reasons) thats been highlighted for years.
Agreed on RLB.