Who are your favourite philosophers?

padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
constant escape said:
AKA the "anti-woke" left.
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interesting, the opposite of what I thought

still, probably not

being an asshole, or even a bigot, isn't the same as fascism

if it includes people who say they're progressive but voted for Trump, then maybe

these are confused times, even more than usual, so people could be fluid
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
That was the first episode I listened to. I was stunned at how comfortable I was listening to Bannon, given how demonized he is.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
there is a huge problem in current discourse where "fascism" is the default pejorative for any kind of authoritarianism or perceived authoritarianism

which is how you can get someone talking about "PC fascism" which is absolute fucking nonsense
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
version said:
The anti-woke left position seems to be a bit like what we've discussed re: woke capitalism on here. That some people want to use identity politics to distract from economics.
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Yeah the reactionary left could be figured as a return to class politics, hence the alignment with the base of Joe Rogan and the like.

However, that doesn't mean that any politics other than class politics is employed/fueled as a distraction from class politics (although that could work as a strategy, I suppose).
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
padraig (u.s.) said:
there is a huge problem in current discourse where "fascism" is the default pejorative for any kind of authoritarianism or perceived authoritarianism

which is how you can get someone talking about "PC fascism" which is absolute fucking nonsense
Click to expand...
Moreover, any critique of "identity politics" is flagged as fascist/cryptofascist as well. Of course, much of such critique is, but might there be a positive critique?
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
padraig (u.s.) said:
you just have to be clear what you mean by "reactionary", as in reactionary to what
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Reactionary, it seems, to wokeness. To cancel culture. To certain elements of "identity politics" that can become... evangelical, perhaps? Resentment fueled? Although perhaps I am misusing "evangelical" here.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
none of these sections of the left have fascist hallmarks in the way the sections of the current right, traditional and alt, do

MAGA is a literal call of rebirth to a mythical purer time, among other calls for purity
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
I agree. The argument, perhaps, is that the reactionary left might harbor some kind of cryptofascism. Whatever that means, or entails.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
constant escape said:
might there be a positive critique?
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sure

we went over it at length in sufi's thread - I think just called "cancellation" - the dangers of mob rule, the revolution eats its itself
,
anyone can become an enemy of the people, be attacked for personal reasons under the guise of political reasons, etc

there is a potential similar obsession with purity but a crucially different kind of purity than fascism

a mythical ideological or revolutionary purity, rather than ethnic or national purity
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
I certainly have my reservations about the reactionary left, but if it can somehow preserve the social justice impetus, and the general awareness of privilege that defines wokeness, while shedding the vehemence of cancel culture - then I'm inclined to give it merit.

It would be properly dialectical. (Sorry if talk of dialectics puts people off - I can't quite tell if the aversion to it is serious or not.)
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
padraig (u.s.) said:
sure

we went over it at length in sufi's thread - I think just called "cancellation" - the dangers of mob rule, the revolution eats its itself
,
anyone can become an enemy of the people, be attacked for personal reasons under the guise of political reasons, etc

there is a potential similar obsession with purity but a crucially different kind of purity than fascism

a mythical ideological or revolutionary purity, rather than ethnic or national purity
Click to expand...
Good point about purity, I hadn't considered it like that.

Something like a moral purity. A term thrown against the social justice movement is "moral authoritarianism" which, while coming from an iffy place, does hit the nail - just not square on the head.
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
version said:
It's an easy way to damage someone without really needing to make a convincing argument. You can just choose to interpret things they've said in as ungenerous a way as possible and manufacture the "evidence".
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And as true as that is, we can also make the argument that movement, insofar as it is a valid reflection of a wide array of struggles, would not be able to gain serious traction if it had to provide actual evidence. Sort of like it has to bank on people's gut reactions, rather than reasoned conclusions, in order to really become a movement.
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
it's hard for the left to embody fascism because it's generally inherently opposed to some key fascist tendencies

i.e. the obsession with tradition and return to a pure mythical past, hypermasculinity, contempt for the weak, fear of the Other, etc

there are other areas where the left and fascism can overlap but those issues make it difficult for them to become as one

I mean today's left specifically, if that isn't clear
 
padraig (u.s.)

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
constant escape said:
moral purity
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with strong enough belief ideological purity is the same as moral purity

put it like this

the left's worst case scenario obsession with rebirth and purity is Year Zero (or Year One, as the French originally put it), an absolute break with the past

fascism's is a return to the past, albeit a mythical, pure past that never actually existed

one is about ideological (revolutionary) purity, the other is about ethnic-cultural purity
 
constant escape

constant escape

winter withered, warm
I guess part of the ideological purity in question is from the perspective of the epicenter of wokeness. From this perspective, anyone who isn't fully onboard (or doesn't indicate that they are fully onboard) with cancel crusades is impure.

And this position, as drastic as it can appear, isn't without reason. Given that it is oriented, to whatever degree, against the reigning hegemony of passive/implicit white supremacy and the like, it needs to risk false positives/accusations. Especially because it is pitted against unconscious bias. A real mess, but one that arguably needs to get made.

Part of the difficulty I'm talking about is: its nearly impossible to defend both sides of this woke left / anti-woke left front, without alienating your company. At least I've found that to be the case.
 
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