Cancellations
- Thread starter sufi
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
who are these mythical people who in the first place, agree with you, and in the second place are for an "ideal left"
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
josef k was a dyed in the wool marxist back then. he was even when I came on a few years later.
unless you're saying he was always a crypto pre-alt right whatever
sus
Moderator
Are people here onboard for American identity politics? That is the current most vocal and politically influential ideology of the American left. Let's not pretend it isn't.
Rather, I see a fair number of people with an economic leftist stance that says, "eh, maybe some kids are getting hysterical, but standing up for the working class and wealth redistribution is important."
Am I wrong?
linebaugh
Well-known member
Weve talked about this before, but I, and I know many on here agree, consider it a collection of values. Labor, need, realities on race and gender and etc.
No one here denies that most purported leftists are insufferable. Keep in mind we went to college at the same time and seemingly hung out in similar circles. I also think your unfairly lumping in most dems as 'the left,' I dont think Nancy Pelosi is a leftist.
I dont really know who inspires me on the left. Mostly people online. I liked Bernie and that coalition- I think thats about as realistic as we can hope for with regards to electoral politics, but my political understanding of the left doesnt end there.
It just seems you've let the well get poisoned for you.
sus
Moderator
Okay so people here like Bernie
I guess I'm pretty mixed on him, because I think the whole "make college free situation" is willfully ignorant of the real problem in this country which is mindless credentialism, and will in fact make that problem even worse while also making taxpayers subsidize the mindless credentialism, but that's another story
I don't think the well got poisoned on me, I think the left is currently adrift and might need a hard reset, looking at the realities of coming automation and asking hard questions about how to handle the growing 80/20 stratification of those who can economically contribute and those who can't. When we've talked about these ideas on here, I've always found the conversation totally reasonable and informed. I just don't think that's the case of the larger political discourse or of political conflict more generally. That's just my opinion. I don't wanna argue about this unless it's grounded in real people and organizations tho, otherwise it's just arguing about what nebulous groupings of people think or don't think, and everyone's talking with different groupings and definitions in mind
I guess I'm pretty mixed on him, because I think the whole "make college free situation" is willfully ignorant of the real problem in this country which is mindless credentialism, and will in fact make that problem even worse while also making taxpayers subsidize the mindless credentialism, but that's another story
I don't think the well got poisoned on me, I think the left is currently adrift and might need a hard reset, looking at the realities of coming automation and asking hard questions about how to handle the growing 80/20 stratification of those who can economically contribute and those who can't. When we've talked about these ideas on here, I've always found the conversation totally reasonable and informed. I just don't think that's the case of the larger political discourse or of political conflict more generally. That's just my opinion. I don't wanna argue about this unless it's grounded in real people and organizations tho, otherwise it's just arguing about what nebulous groupings of people think or don't think, and everyone's talking with different groupings and definitions in mind
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
my position is intersectional. I think you need the economic critique and you need the identity politics.
if you drilled down further there'd eventually have to be hard discussion about allocation of scarce resources, but in principal you need both.
no one on the left "inspires me". I like David Graeber, I guess, if he's included in "left". he's an anthropologist. people like that.
electoral politics beyond the very local are always a least worst option, but abstaining is one of the worse options
of all the Democratic candidates this cycle I'd have picked Warren as a more realistic version of Bernie, and more likely to get something done
that's not to say I'm a Warren "fan" or a Bernie fan or an anyone fan
as @Linebaugh says, my understanding of politics doesn't begin or end with electoral politics
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
gotta stop ascribing beliefs to people
linebaugh
Well-known member
Your earlier comments about the 'statistics' of Trumps racism sounds to me like the apologia of someone for whom the well has been poisoned. The accompanying 'well obama did it worse' makes it hard to see it any other way. But I get that was in the middle of a barrage of comments
Im skeptical of how you say 'people like bernie' here. I don't agree on the free college thing either, but I didnt really consider that to be the worth of those promises. Again, my appreciation for Bernie is a primarily sad calculation confined exclusively to electoral politics. With regards to the coming automation crisis, for one, thats a foundational leftist thought, and two, the measures that Bernie was trying to enact were in the general direction of how I think the gov. should best address that.
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dissensus isn't pro identity politics, it's an alt right MGTOW forum.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
have to disagree with some of luka's definitions.
Danny L certainly isn't right wing in any sense. center-left Labour type, albeit more for intervention (qua Syria) than some.
third is definitely a communist but john eden isn't, unless perhaps in the anti-state council communist sense
he, I, and probably droid are closer to anarchism, or coming out of that tradition anyway
we're all older and pragmatic at this point, but in belief
Danny L certainly isn't right wing in any sense. center-left Labour type, albeit more for intervention (qua Syria) than some.
third is definitely a communist but john eden isn't, unless perhaps in the anti-state council communist sense
he, I, and probably droid are closer to anarchism, or coming out of that tradition anyway
we're all older and pragmatic at this point, but in belief
linebaugh
Well-known member
weve also drifted away from the point here. this conversation started because it seemed you were denying, or at least downplaying, the real transgressions of Trump for reactionary reasons. No ones demanding you become some devout leftist.
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luka
Well-known member
i was teasing everybody.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
fuck I had no idea
RIP indeed
a true intellectual giant of the last couple decades
one of the only public intellectuals with serious academic chops to mount a both radical and pragmatic challenge to capitalist realism