Leo

Well-known member
I have not seen one minute of any Harry Potter thing, nor read a page of the books. not trying to make a point, just not interested.
 

chava

Well-known member
where did I say they were

of course we all experience alienation. is that really a disclaimer I need to make? is not implicit?

your response is the same kind of thinking as responding to "black lives matter" with "all lives matter" - who said otherwise? how does the one invalidate the other?

It invalidates the other if it is read as an intersectional reality, as in the experience of alienation is caused by oppression only.
 

constant escape

winter withered, warm


Judith Butler: I want to first question whether trans-exclusionary feminists are really the same as mainstream feminists. If you are right to identify the one with the other, then a feminist position opposing transphobia is a marginal position. I think this may be wrong. My wager is that most feminists support trans rights and oppose all forms of transphobia.

"My wager is [x]" is a good way of saying that, of prefacing assertions that aren't intended to be foundational.

edit: also this is well put

I learn from being confronted and challenged, and I accept that I have made some significant errors in my public life. If someone then said I should not be read or listened to as a result of those errors, well, I would object internally, since I don't think any mistake a person made can, or should, summarise that person. We live in time; we err, sometimes seriously; and if we are lucky, we change precisely because of interactions that let us see things differently.
 
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chava

Well-known member
AF: You weren't a signatory to the open letter on “cancel culture” in Harper’s this summer, but did its arguments resonate with you?

JB: I have mixed feelings about that letter. On the one hand, I am an educator and writer and believe in slow and thoughtful debate. I learn from being confronted and challenged, and I accept that I have made some significant errors in my public life. If someone then said I should not be read or listened to as a result of those errors, well, I would object internally, since I don't think any mistake a person made can, or should, summarise that person. We live in time; we err, sometimes seriously; and if we are lucky, we change precisely because of interactions that let us see things differently.

On the other hand, some of those signatories were taking aim at Black Lives Matter as if the loud and public opposition to racism were itself uncivilised behaviour. Some of them have opposed legal rights for Palestine. Others have [allegedly] committed sexual harassment. And yet others do not wish to be challenged on their racism. Democracy requires a good challenge, and it does not always arrive in soft tones. So I am not in favour of neutralising the strong political demands for justice on the part of subjugated people. When one has not been heard for decades, the cry for justice is bound to be loud.



She's obviously afraid to be guilty by association; not surprising for these incestuous academic types. Coward.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Thought this thread was a good response
seems like yr basic TERF party line i.e.

being against trans exclusion is somehow "marginalizing female people who center female people in the movement for female liberation"

("female people" here obviously excluding trans women)

trans women are just men looking for an excuse to sexually assault cis women

we're not the bad essentialists actually you are

etc

so how much truck you have with it will coincide with how much truck you have with that party line

not that I'm cosigning everything Judith Butler has ever done or said, including in that interview

but that Twitter thread ain't breaking any new ground
 

luka

Well-known member
Do you think breaking new ground is the only way out of here? You seem to be suggesting an innovation is required. Some squaring of the circle.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Do you think breaking new ground is the only way out of here? You seem to be suggesting an innovation is required. Some squaring of the circle.
Good point, maybe we'll eventually make some real progress by just rehashing things that have been said a million times over already.
 

luka

Well-known member
Good point, maybe we'll eventually make some real progress by just rehashing things that have been said a million times over already.

I believe that we will make progress by doing, not by finding a magical argument
 

luka

Well-known member
By trying to balance different peoples wants and fears and hopes and expectations. No argument is going to make my mum less disgusted outraged and appalled to find what she thinks of a man in the women's toilet. But if it keeps happening perhaps she will stop chasing them out. Or perhaps she won't.
 

luka

Well-known member
actual integration of different races from childhood seems to be the best way to undermine racist attitudes in society. The arguments aren't useless but it's better if you just grow up with friends who don't look like you.
 
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