john eden

male pale and stale
He didn't say it was fine, he instructed his MPs to abstain. Why I don't know but it's a different thing. I assume it's about not giving the Tories easy attack lines. It's also a parliamentary way of signalling opposition before you submit amendments before the third and final reading. If they all the against it on the third reading how would you feel John? That's the critical point. There's loads of wilful misrepresentation of this doing the rounds atm.

McCluskey is an appalling influence anyway, glad it's on the wane.

Let’s see if they change their minds and vote against it at the third reading then I guess, when presumably they magically won’t care about giving the Tories easy attack lines or whatever?:giggle:

I somehow doubt it, but parliamentary logic is not my strong point.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
What's to be gained from attacking Starmer's Labour at this time? Seems counter-productive when the Tories are currently in power, have thousands of deaths on their hands and are about to dump Brexit on us as well.

It’s cathartic and winds up the ultra-leftists who bought into Corbyn and somehow remain in the party. Also I would never understate the political influence of this place, but I don’t think Sir Kier Starmer is quite as regular on here these days.
 

version

Well-known member
It’s cathartic and winds up the ultra-leftists who bought into Corbyn and somehow remain in the party. Also I would never understate the political influence of this place, but I don’t think Sir Kier Starmer is quite as regular on here these days.
I wasn't talking about this place. I meant Unite cutting their funding and you saying they should have cut it further.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
What's to be gained from attacking Starmer's Labour at this time? Seems counter-productive when the Tories are currently in power, have thousands of deaths on their hands and are about to dump Brexit on us as well.
The Left are going to endlessly attack him 'cos he's not magic grandpa, basically. Ever Labour leader who's won an election has been seen as a sellout by the Left, even Atlee. Plus ça change.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I wasn't talking about this place. I meant Unite cutting their funding and you saying they should have cut it further.

Well again, I doubt Unite care about my thoughts on this particularly since I moved to Unison.

But I would imagine, it being politics, that they are signalling their displeasure at the direction the Labour Party is taking under Sir Kier Starmer. Presumably because they feel this will be unfavourable to Unite’s interests. And what with Unite being a huge donor, they have some leverage and influence, unlike with the Tories who have very different kinds of donors, who are doing the same thing but not in public.
 

version

Well-known member
They aren't worried about strengthening the Tories further by hobbling their opposition then?
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Let’s see if they change their minds and vote against it at the third reading then I guess, when presumably they magically won’t care about giving the Tories easy attack lines or whatever?:giggle:

I somehow doubt it, but parliamentary logic is not my strong point.

Jon, could you point out where Starmer said it's basically okay for cops to spy on people? Cos there's a lot of this from the Left of the party at the moment and it's classic bad faith. They're fucked off 'cos their messian is not in No. 10 and the confusion over abstention and voting against, and 2nd and 3rd reading is a classic splitting tactic (aimed at their base, not MPs I should add) . If only they were as good at winning elections as they are at inciting factional battles.

There's nothing Starmer can do to block the bill - as Ollie says, it'll become law anyway 'cos they've such a large majority. Starmer has the task of seeing if he can blunt the worst of it via amendments balanced with being denounced by the press and media as hating "our boys" and being in love with immigrants etc. I don't know how you square that circle and it's an unenviable position.

And Unite's interests? Such as funding the defence of a doomed libel case after a smear of a sitting Labour MP? He's a factional player like the rest of 'em. He lost, so he's taking his ball and going home.
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
They aren't worried about strengthening the Tories further by hobbling their opposition then?

Well I see no evidence of the extraordinarily weak opposition to the Tories (which does not yet even include standing up for the human rights of union reps) being hobbled. And presumably Unite can now transfer that money into more effective campaigns instead.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Jon, could you point out where Starmer said it's basically okay for cops to spy on people? Cos there's a lot of this from the Left of the party at the moment and it's classic bad faith. They're fucked off 'cos their messian is not in No. 10 and the confusion over abstention and voting against, and 2nd and 3rd reading is a classic splitting tactic. If only they were as good at winning elections as they are at inciting factional battles.

There's nothing Starmer can do to block the bill - as Ollie says, it'll become law anyway 'cos they've such a large majority. Starmer has the task of seeing if he can blunt the worst of it via amendments balanced with being denounced by the press and media as hating "our boys" and being in love with immigrants etc. I don't know how you square that circle and it's an unenviable position.

And Unite's interests? Such as funding a doomed libel case against a sitting Labour MP? He's a factional player like the rest of 'em. He lost, so he's taking his ball and going home.

Yer LOTO has not yet said anything about defending the human rights of union reps, Danny, for or against. So yes you’ve got me there.

As for Unite, I’ve gone out of my way to frame their machinations as in the interests of the organisation aka the leadership. These may or may not be the same as the interests of Unite’s members of course.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
i dont let politics intrude on important stuff like that. its mainly a tool for annoying mr tea
I had thought as much.

I could respond by making a dig at Corbyn, but I fear it would have something of the "Oh yeah? Well, you smell too!" about it.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I think it’s true that Corbyn’s fan club are obviously sniping at Sir Keir. Many of them like Novara seem to have given him a few months grace though.

I have no skin in that game but the machinations now seem pathetic compared to what Jezza put up with in his first year, culminating in “the chicken coup” when 44 MPs resigned from the front bench in a choreographed attempt to undermine a leader elected by the membership by a huge margin.

I doubt we will see similar for Sir Kier, or key figures in his office plotting against him throughout his time as leader.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
All this bullshit about Corbyn's fan club. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of people – a lot of them young people, who had never been involved in party politics before – who suddenly saw hope, a chance to change society, and joined the Labour party enthused that this might even be possible. And you all reduce them and their aspirations for a better society to some sort of cult. Well, fuck that contemptible cynicism. Basically.
 

luka

Well-known member
All this bullshit about Corbyn's fan club. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of people – a lot of them young people, who had never been involved in party politics before – who suddenly saw hope, a chance to change society, and joined the Labour party enthused that this might even be possible. And you all reduce them and their aspirations for a better society to some sort of cult. Well, fuck that contemptible cynicism. Basically.

(voices from then backbenches) hear hear yeah bloody hell burrr quite right
 

john eden

male pale and stale
All this bullshit about Corbyn's fan club. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of people – a lot of them young people, who had never been involved in party politics before – who suddenly saw hope, a chance to change society, and joined the Labour party enthused that this might even be possible. And you all reduce them and their aspirations for a better society to some sort of cult. Well, fuck that contemptible cynicism. Basically.

But what happened to them, @subvert47 ? The hundreds of thousands of people who voted for and believed in Corbyn (not all of whom I would reduce to being in his fan club, if that helps)?
 

luka

Well-known member
i became radicalised and decided death to all politicians was the only possible path forward. gouts of blood. gutters frothing with blood. that's probably the main response but it will differ person to person i reckon.
 
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