Idle Rich Turns `The Wheel of Time.'

luka

Well-known member
so i would say the artisitc problem you would face if you were to produce work in this genre is how to push agsinst that racism without relinquishing the force of these stock characters, settings, situations etc
 

luka

Well-known member
you've got a shorthand operating here, people want to be placed in those deserts, those oases, those walled towns in the deserts where snake charmers play their horns
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Ah.... I don't know... I've only read four of the fourteen books. Basically it starts off as a shocking rip-off of Lord of the Rings but I think as it goes he expanded the mythology (he must do, it's getting on for 20,000 pages) and weaves in a bit of "everything happens again according to a pattern" philosophy.
To start, our heroes (who may as well be called Frodo and Sam etc) live in a backwards village called Eamon's Field (the Shire) and are persecuted by a sinister black rider (later revealed to be a servant of the dark lord Sauron called a Myrrdraal) but they are rescued by a female version of Gandalf and her protector Aragorn (ok he's called Lan - he later turns out to be the last in a royal line from a country who battle the forces of the dark one - like Aragorn does in Lord of the Rings).
Our heroic band escapes from an attack on the village and proceed to have a load of adventures - normally being attacked by various evil forces. The baddie is basically kinda like Sauron but actually there is a huge taboo about saying his name cos you will bring a curse on yourself.
And this is all based in a cyclical story in which every epoch features a battle between the dark one and a warrior of light known as The Dragon Reborn - the original Dragon was Lews Therin Telamon a (Welsh?) hero who defeated the dark one and imprisoned him - but went mad in the process, killing all his family (earning himself the nickname The Kinslayer) and "broke the world" in some kind of enormous chaos that destroyed civilisation (possibly a nuclear explosion cos there is an implication at times that the world where all this occurred is ours but in a later era, maybe after some kind of collapse and - very slow - rebuild).
Oh yeah, and a big part of it is the magic system - magic is divided into two parts; male and female (only two clearly defined genders here thank you very much, his whole system is based on that) and it works by somehow accessing the relevant stream if you are a man or a woman. Except, when Lews Therin broke the world he corrupted the male magic, so any men who learn to channel (as doing magic is called) are destined to go mad and basically they are not allowed to do it and are hunted down by the female magicians and have their power taken from them - something which causes a massive psychological blow to anyone who experiences it. But this leaves the world in a massive bind cos on the one hand their only chance again the Dark One is the rebirth of the Dragon and so they are all hoping that he comes along - but on the other hand any man who can do magic must be hunted down and destroyed as he may go mental and start destroying everything. A recurring theme is magic men turning up and claiming to be The Dragon Reborn but then being defeated and thus proving that they are not part of the prophecy-cycle-thing after all.
Anyway, it won't surprise anyone to learn that one of our heroic villagers is in fact the real Dragon Reborn and the book basically follows him growing in power and so on, every new volume introduces a mcguffin such as The Sword That Can Never Be Touched or The One Ring That Binds Them All or whatever and they suddenly realise they have to go and get it at all costs - normally there is suddenly a new tribe of people that they've just remembered are incredibly important or whatever.
And all of this is kinda within the problematic situation of having to resolve The Pattern and prophecy and fate and so on with adventures where you're not supposed to know whether they will survive or not.
Anyway, I'm making it sound bad but it's enjoyable enough and George RR Martin was obviously paying attention - though really in terms of depth and writing and characterisation etc this cannot be compared to GofT. Jordan died before he finished it sadly so the last couple of books were written from his notes by his chosen heir I think.
 

luka

Well-known member
they want caliphs and viziers and evil magicians. they want scimitars. they want dancing houris and so on and so forth
 

luka

Well-known member
when you use these templates a lot of the work has already been done for you. you can please the reader in these landscapes or in the midst of these characters and they already know what is going on. a few words is all you need. ah, here again! in the desert town! burroughs plays with this throughout his books and has great fun with it
 

luka

Well-known member
originality in genre fiction, or in genre generally works differently. it's not a modernist programme of perpetual novelty. its the same but different that is required.
 

luka

Well-known member
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luka

Well-known member
and there are historical and mythological and popular culture peoples associated with each region eg araby stuff with the desert the mongol horde and other nomad tribes with the steppe
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
as well as araby stuff you always have vikings, broadly speaking, strong manly taciturn bearded stern but principled.
I've just started reading the travel writing of Ibd Fadlan, as it happens - an Arab who met Vikings (and all sorts of Turks and Slavs and so on) 1,100 years ago.
 

luka

Well-known member
I've just started reading the travel writing of Ibd Fadlan, as it happens - an Arab who met Vikings (and all sorts of Turks and Slavs and so on) 1,100 years ago.

thats the kind of material deposit you draw from as a fantasy writer
 

luka

Well-known member
it's interesting, i suppose, that South America, Africa south of the Sahara, and Ocenia and even Asia east of the Dzungarian Gate are not heavily drawn on in fantasy material.

Lovecraft is keen on Oceania but he's a special case and not even really fantasy per se.
 

luka

Well-known member
there certainly is a fantasy China and a fantasy Africa but they are relatively underdeveloped.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
when you use these templates a lot of the work has already been done for you. you can please the reader in these landscapes or in the midst of these characters and they already know what is going on. a few words is all you need. ah, here again! in the desert town! burroughs plays with this throughout his books and has great fun with it
Yes... but I think that the copying in WofT goes way beyond that. It does diverge later though. I mean it has to, he writes so much.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
what are the major categories of landscape, ie the backdrops and stage sets for your characters?

desert, https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tatooine

jungle https://james-camerons-avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Pandora

forest https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Endor

mountains

swamp

the frozen north https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Skyrim

the grasslands the steppe the prarie https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Dothraki_Sea

???
One you've missed out is the evil tainted land - The Waste in WofT. The Nothing in the Neverending Story - although that goes way beyond.
Also, relatedly, in afterworlds such as the M Harrison stuff you get bits when they walk past and describe structures they can't understand but you say "oh it's a football stadium" or the statue of liberty or whatever.
 

luka

Well-known member
that's par for the course.

The Sword of Shannara has drawn extensive criticism from critics who believe that Brooks derived too much of his novel from Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. In 1978, American fantasy editor Lin Carter denounced The Sword of Shannara as "the single most cold-blooded, complete rip-off of another book that I have ever read".[31] He further wrote that "Terry Brooks wasn't trying to imitate Tolkien's prose, just steal his story line and complete cast of characters, and he did it with such clumsiness and so heavy-handedly, that he virtually rubbed your nose in it."[31] Roger C. Schlobin was kinder in his assessment, though he still thought that The Sword of Shannara was a disappointment because of its similarities to The Lord of the Rings.[32] Brian Attebery accused The Sword of Shannara of being "undigested Tolkien" which was "especially blatant in its point-for-point correspondence" with The Lord of the Rings.[33] In an educational article on writing, author Orson Scott Card cited The Sword of Shannara as a cautionary example of overly derivative writing, finding the work "artistically displeasing" for this reason.[34]

Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey writes that the novel is distinctive for "the dogged way in which it follows Tolkien point for point".[35] Shippey located analogues for Tolkien characters within Brooks' novel, such as Sauron (Brona), Gandalf (Allanon), the Hobbits (Shea and Flick), Aragorn (Menion), Boromir (Balinor), Gimli (Hendel), Legolas (Durin and Dayel), Gollum (Orl Fane), the Barrow-wight (Mist Wraith), the Nazgûl (Skull Bearers), and Tom Bombadil (King of the Silver River), among others.[35] He also found plot similarities to events in The Lord of the Rings, such as the Fellowship of the Ring's formation and adventures, the journeys to Rivendell (Culhaven) and Lothlórien (Storlock), Gandalf's (Allanon) fall in Moria (Paranor) and subsequent reappearance, and the Rohirrim's arrival at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields (Battle of Tyrsis), among others.[35] Shippey attributes the book's success to the post-Tolkien advent of the fantasy genre: "What The Sword of Shannara seems to show is that many readers had developed the taste ... for heroic fantasy so strongly that if they could not get the real thing they would take any substitute, no matter how diluted."[35]

Terry Brooks has said that Tolkien's works were a major influence in his writing,[36] though he has also said that Tolkien was not his only influence. Other influences included his editor Lester del Rey, as well as the many different books which he had read over his life. Also, mythology and ancient civilizations that he had learned about in school gave him a wealth of knowledge from which he drew. Many of these influences are reflected in his books, he claims.[11]

Author Gene Wolfe defended Brooks' derivation of material from Tolkien in a 2001 Interzone essay: "Terry Brooks has often been disparaged for imitating Tolkien, particularly by those reviewers who find his books inferior to Tolkien's own. I can say only that I wish there were more imitators—we need them—and that all imitations of so great an original must necessarily be inferior."[37] Dune author Frank Herbert also defended Brooks:[38] "Brooks demonstrates that it doesn't matter where you get the idea; what matters is that you tell a rousing story."

John Batchelor feels that it was the weakest of the 1977 surge in fantasy, ranking it below Stephen R. Donaldson's The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever, Seamus Cullen's Astra and Flondrix, and The Silmarillion, edited by Christopher Tolkien, while commenting that it "unabashedly copies" Lord of the Rings.[39] The Pittsburgh Press feels that Sword embodies the Tolkien spirit and tradition but is quite able to stand apart from Lord of the Rings.[40]
 

luka

Well-known member
One you've missed out is the evil tainted land - The Waste in WofT. The Nothing in the Neverending Story - although that goes way beyond.
Also, relatedly, in afterworlds such as the M Harrison stuff you get bits when they walk past and describe structures they can't understand but you say "oh it's a football stadium" or the statue of liberty or whatever.

that's true although i was sticking to things with real world correlatives
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
and there are historical and mythological and popular culture peoples associated with each region eg araby stuff with the desert the mongol horde and other nomad tribes with the steppe
With GofT it feels if he hasn't decided if the Araby bit is Dorn or Braavos etc
Maybe Dorn is more Spain or Italy come to think of it.
 

luka

Well-known member
With GofT it feels if he hasn't decided if the Araby bit is Dorn or Braavos etc
Maybe Dorn is more Spain or Italy come to think of it.

but it would be a Moorish Spain if so wouldn't it. so you get these natural blurrings of the lines in any case.
 
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