Keir Starmer

IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
And there was a clear majority support for Trump and Brexit.
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Come come now John. Their was a tiny majority on one day. All the evidence suggests that by the time we actually did it and people had something more of an idea - though not totally - of what a clusterfuck it was gonna be, there much clearer majority against it ..
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
And there was never a majority for Trump.
I totally agree that majority backing of an idea has nothing to do with it being right (as a rule) but why use such incorrect examples to make a valid point?
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
Or is it just a subtle way of saying that the majority of was wrong when they swung against brexit and that you still celebrate it as the greatest day in the history of our once proud and soon to rise again nation?
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I bet Rich would have something insightful to say about Brexit right now, if John hadn't blasted him into subatomic particles. :(
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
Mr. Tea said:
First, this is getting dangerously close to Ken Livingstone, "Of course Jews vote Tory, they're all rich and mean"
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It’s not, because as usual I am very careful about the language I use. And your “getting dangerously close to” is your usual way of putting filthy words in my mouth that I have not said to make your argument rather than engaging with what is in front of you.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
DannyL said:
Interview with Moshe Postone here. You'd probably like this John, he's a deep cut Marxist, theoried up to the brim: https://www.workersliberty.org/files/100205postone.pdf

One reason I like this is that he talks about Jewish history and alludes to the Bund and other social movements (as Jon is doing above) that for a while were alternatives to Zionism.
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Cool I will check that out, Danny!

Everyone should read this by him:
libcom.org

Anti-semitism and National Socialism - Moishe Postone

No functionalist explanation of the Holocaust and no scapegoat theory of anti-Semitism can even begin to explain why, in the last years of the war, when the German forces were being crushed by the Red Army, a significant proportion of vehicles was deflected from logistical support and used to...
libcom.org libcom.org

I have not read his intimidating book on time and social domination though. :)
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
This is great from that Postone interview:

———/-/—
Between 1967 and 2000, the left in Israel had always argued that what the Palestinians wanted was self-determination, and that the right-wing notion that they wanted to eradicate Israel was a fantasy. Unfortunately that fantasy was shown in 2000 not to be a fantasy, which has strengthened the right immeasurably in its attempts to prevent the coming into being of a Palestinian state. The Israeli right and the Palestinian right are reinforcing each other, and the left in the West is supporting what I regard as the Palestinian right, the ultra-nationalists and the Islamists.
——-///———-

Resonates well with the EDL and the loonier elements of Islamism reinforcing each other in England in the noughties.
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
DannyL said:
Interview with Moshe Postone here. You'd probably like this John, he's a deep cut Marxist, theoried up to the brim: https://www.workersliberty.org/files/100205postone.pdf

One reason I like this is that he talks about Jewish history and alludes to the Bund and other social movements (as Jon is doing above) that for a while were alternatives to Zionism.
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This also interests me from another angle: one of my close friends is a member of Workers Liberty, and he has always said the reason they are disliked by all of other Trotsky groups is because of their total antipathy to the likes Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hezbollah and their more sympathetic attitude towards Israeli existence.

Very good interview, a breath of clear, fresh air, thank you @DannyL
 
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
john eden said:
It’s not, because as usual I am very careful about the language I use.
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Like when you're making demonstrably untrue claims for the sake of triggering libtards?

john eden said:
And your “getting dangerously close to” is your usual way of putting filthy words in my mouth that I have not said to make your argument rather than engaging with what is in front of you.
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Well then what's the context of your claim that Jewish voters are getting more right-wing, when the only metric for that is moving away from the Labour party? You've made it clear on many occasions that you don't have much faith or interest in parliamentary politics in general, so I'm surprised to see you taking voters' level of enthusiasm for Labour as the main criterion for whether they're left-wing or right-wing. How many times have we heard Corbynites swearing they'll never vote Labour again over the last year or so? Leaving aside the fact that this obviously makes future Tory victories (even) more likely, does this convict them of being "right-wing"?
 
D

DannyL

Wild Horses
craner said:
This also interests me from another angle: one of my close friends is a member of Workers Liberty, and he has always said the reason they are disliked by all of other Trotsky groups is because of their total antipathy to the likes Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hezbollah and their more sympathetic attitude towards Israeli existence.

Very good interview, a breath of clear, fresh air, thank you @DannyL
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Yes, I get something similar from reading him. A real sense of clarity.

I thought this was a striking passage, reminded me a little of Mark on Capitalist Realism:

Today, I doubt that even the people who proclaim “We are all Hezbollah” or “We are all Hamas” would say that those movements represent an emancipatory social order. At best what is involved is an Orientalist reification of the Arabs and/or Muslims as the Other, whereby the Other, this time, is affirmed. It is yet another indication of historical helplessness on the part of the left, the inability to come up with any imaginary of what a post-capitalist future might look like. Not having any vision of a post-capitalist future, many have substituted a reified notion of “resistance” for any conception of transformation. Anything that “resists” the United States becomes regarded positively. I regard this as an extremely questionable form of thought.
 
subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Mr. Tea said:
How many times have we heard Corbynites swearing they'll never vote Labour again over the last year or so? Leaving aside the fact that this obviously makes future Tory victories (even) more likely, does this convict them of being "right-wing"?
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How many times have we seen centrists actively campaigning against Labour over the previous four years? Leaving aside the fact that this obviously made Tory victories (even) more likely, does this convict them of being "right-wing"?

Absolutely it does. They clearly preferred a right-wing Tory government to a left-wing Labour one. Which is why, when "Corbynites" see the utter cynical hypocrisy of "you have to vote Labour or...", we want to lock every centrist in a big school hall and and burn it to the fucking ground.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
subvert47 said:
How many times have we seen centrists actively campaigning against Labour over the previous four years? Leaving aside the fact that this obviously made Tory victories (even) more likely, does this convict them of being "right-wing"?

Absolutely it does. They clearly preferred a right-wing Tory government to a left-wing Labour one. Which is why, when "Corbynites" see the utter cynical hypocrisy of "you have to vote Labour or...", we want to lock every centrist in a big school hall and and burn it to the fucking ground.
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Jesus, you're absolutely off your fucking rocker, aren't you?
 
version

version

Well-known member
DannyL said:
Interview with Moshe Postone here. You'd probably like this John, he's a deep cut Marxist, theoried up to the brim: https://www.workersliberty.org/files/100205postone.pdf

One reason I like this is that he talks about Jewish history and alludes to the Bund and other social movements (as Jon is doing above) that for a while were alternatives to Zionism.
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I thought this was interesting, sent it some people and they really didn't like it. They took issue with his claims there were no progressive dimensions to the Iranian revolution and that the USSR wasn't a post-capitalist society.
 
D

DannyL

Wild Horses
version said:
I thought this was interesting, sent it some people and they really didn't like it. They took issue with his claims there were no progressive dimensions to the Iranian revolution and that the USSR wasn't a post-capitalist society.
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Christ. I think that speaks volumes.
Look at what Iran actually does in the region now, look at wealth distribution in Russia....
 
version

version

Well-known member
DannyL said:
Christ. I think that speaks volumes.
Look at what Iran actually does in the region now, look at wealth distribution in Russia....
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I dunno that they think that of Iran now. I got the impression they felt there were progressive elements, but they were stamped out. I'll ask them.
 
D

DannyL

Wild Horses
Yeah I guess there might've been. Any revolution is going to let loose a lot of different forces. Seems to have put women back behind the veil pretty quickly though.
 
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