Brexit Day

It's completely insane that you now have the Mail on Sunday writing articles like this

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...tml?ico=amp-comments-viewall#comments-9914451

It's actually related to what was being discussed in the music cult thread; it is extremely difficult for someone to admit that something they believed in for a very long time, argued passionately for, campaigned for, voted for and the victory of which they celebrated, is in fact a fucking disaster.
I think that there are many people who would see themselves as rational and who made what seemed at the time to be a rational decision to Leave but who now find all their rational arguments defeated for one reason or another, yet they still are unable to admit that they were so wrong for so long because of this problem.
It feels that the main Brexiter position now is bolstered entirely by this. I think this is why you get people who are surely not that stupid in general making ludicrous claims "oh it's better that all the shops are shutting cos they must have had exploitative business models, I like it much better now with all the cafes gone" or someone the other day saying about Nandos shutting cos they can't get the chicken delivered "Well they should just get loads of lorries and train their own staff to deliver chicken" as though it s somehow a totally natural and reasonable thing for massive companies to completely change their business model or go out of business, and that something that demands that is not a bad thing.

The point is, I am sure, that if all these people could somehow magically delete all those arguments they have had with friends, if all the stuff on twitter and facebook and the comment pages of twenty different newspapers could vanish, they would love to be able to wake up tomorrow and say "Yeah Brexit, it's terrible isn't it? I always knew it would be".
And it really seems that that is what the Mail on Sunday is doing.
Honestly how can they report things like this so blandly, as though there weren't countless people screaming at them that this would happen?

An alarming one in five small exporters have stopped selling into the EU because of the extra red tape and costs involved, according to the Federation of Small Businesses. A further one in five are thinking about ending sales to the EU, the trade body said.

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I really like the bit that begins....

Our investigation into the food and drinks export crisis also revealed:

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And then they list a load of terrible things that people said would happen and which have happened as though it came totally out of nowhere and they were the ones who discovered them!

The warnings come after the MoS revealed last month that draconian border controls were making it 'almost impossible' for Marks & Spencer to get sandwiches to its stores in Paris. Before Brexit, firms could export goods freely into the bloc. But they now face a string of new hurdles including extra customs paperwork and VAT charges.

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The chutzpah is way beyond anything I have ever seen before, I mean that last line... people often say "I cannot believe it" but I literally cannot believe that they are reporting that as news - it would be incredibly funny except for that the fact that their lies (along with those of its sister paper) which completely denied those obvious facts daily for years had a huge effect on causing people to vote for this fucking insane aberration.

Rod McKenzie, at The Road Haulage Association, said: 'It's fine to have ambitions to trade around the world with non-EU countries. But we have to accept our geography and that for certain businesses – particularly perishable food – it's not practical to focus on markets halfway across the world rather than Europe. We can't just ignore our biggest market.'

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Even by the extraordinary standards set by brexit, this is a new kind of insanity. INCREDIBLE:

Mr. Tea said:

On the other hand, there are arguments like this:

Which is pretty persuasive, you've got to admit.

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It's the only argument that, er, remains

There is an argument about whether it's successful and if so to what extent.
There is a huge argument as to what extent it is responsible for the current problems such as shortages the UK is facing and whether these can be mitigated by negotiation etc
I get that you don't want to talk about it - I wouldn't either - and you don't have to, but please don't keep telling me the debate is over. I think highlighting these problems and hammering them home hard so people completely understand the cause is an important step towards rejoining.
As for it just being whining... I mean, if the threads about Afghanistan or whatever are very different and directly influencing policy then I gotta say I haven't noticed. But even if it is just whining then I suggest you get used to seeing me whine cos I got a fuck load of stuff to whine about.

john eden said:

There is no debate.

There are people who want the smoking ban reversed who wax lyrical about pubs were fuller, nicer and smelt less of farts. There are also people who hated their clothes smelling of smoke and getting cancer from passive smoking. But they don't actually debate with each other. There is no apetite to reverse the smoking ban.

And there is no apetite to reverse Brexit. Electorally, that was a complete non-starter at the last election. It's done. So you just get people posting empty shelves in supermarkets on one side and people on the other side saying that the shelves in their supermarket were full or that they don't mind not being able to get the specific brand of fizzy drink they usually buy. (Before Mr Tea pipes up, this is literally something somebody said on the Radio 4 'World At One Show' earlier today when I was having my lunch).

There is going to be a public inquiry into how the govt handled COVID. There is not going to be a public inquiry into Brexit. (I'm not a great believer in public inquiries myself, but there is leverage there and a chance to right wrongs of the past).

So I mean, whine away, if you enjoy it. I am sure there are many downsides to Brexit, so the moral high ground is completely secure if that is the path you want to take. I just don't think this will make any practical difference, beyond your own personal feelings.

In terms of Afghanistan there is a groundswell of opinion that can influence the government. It is not great odds but it is worth a go.

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Now we have a debate about whether there is a debate... although this one is more clear cut with you making that point and the millions of remainers and brexiters debating it right now disagreeing.
I don’t read long texts beginning with an obvious untruth so I'm afraid I didn't read the rest, I'm sure there were some good points in there somewhere though... well, possibly.
In short though, I won't let myself be browbeaten into silence by this attempted censorship.

john eden said:

Well this is my point really @IdleRich

There is lots of talk. But no debate.

Because neither side is listening to each other.

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No, they're telling each other to stop taking about it, in at least one case, which is worse.

Also, I think it's noteworthy how the Mail has suddenly discovered project fear, in fact there is loads of stuff going on way beyond 'brexit is shit' if you cared to look...