john eden

male pale and stale
This may not be the victory you so clearly crave, Rich, but if you want to stop reading here I am happy for you to feel like you've got one over on me.
As with the smoking ban, there is no longer an argument about Brexit. It has happened.

And like the smoking ban, there are groups of people pointing out the detrimental effects it has had on some aspects of life in the UK.

Without a cohesive social movement both of these things are just whining though.

There are a number of things happening.

On this thread, for better or worse, we are having a conversation about Brexit. This incorporates your whining about how it is bad and how you can't understand how it happened, and your examples of what you see as the ill effects of it happening. But there is also a wider discussion about the general trajectory of the EU, the effects of Brexit and COVID on the economy and the class struggle - and some meta conversations about leavers and remainers and wider culture.

Perhaps we could class this as a debate, but it is not specifically a debate about whether or not the UK has left the EU as that seems settled. It is not either especially a debate about whether or not we should rejoin the EU as nobody here seems to have either the appetite or a practical plan for that.

There are moments where we misunderstand each other and there are moments where, consciously or unconsciously, people here misrepresent each other.

The point I was trying to make is that in wider culture there is not even that level of conversation, as this has become very toxic and polarised. There can be no proper debate where people do not genuinely try to engage with each other and understand their positions.

So - in wider culture there is no genuine debate about the downsides of Brexit, because half of the world is posting up random pictures of empty supermarket shelves and the other half is posting up random photos of full ones, for example. One side blames COVID and one side blames Brexit.

And as with this thread, in wider culture I have seen no actual debate about whether we should rejoin the EU.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
This may not be the victory you so clearly crave, Rich, but if you want to stop reading here I am happy for you to feel like you've got one over on me.


There are a number of things happening.

On this thread, for better or worse, we are having a conversation about Brexit. This incorporates your whining about how it is bad and how you can't understand how it happened, and your examples of what you see as the ill effects of it happening. But there is also a wider discussion about the general trajectory of the EU, the effects of Brexit and COVID on the economy and the class struggle - and some meta conversations about leavers and remainers and wider culture.

Perhaps we could class this as a debate, but it is not specifically a debate about whether or not the UK has left the EU as that seems settled. It is not either especially a debate about whether or not we should rejoin the EU as nobody here seems to have either the appetite or a practical plan for that.

There are moments where we misunderstand each other and there are moments where, consciously or unconsciously, people here misrepresent each other.

The point I was trying to make is that in wider culture there is not even that level of conversation, as this has become very toxic and polarised. There can be no proper debate where people do not genuinely try to engage with each other and understand their positions.

So - in wider culture there is no genuine debate about the downsides of Brexit, because half of the world is posting up random pictures of empty supermarket shelves and the other half is posting up random photos of full ones, for example. One side blames COVID and one side blames Brexit.

And as with this thread, in wider culture I have seen no actual debate about whether we should rejoin the EU.
It's not about victory John. I'm just pretty disappointed by you in this thread to be honest.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Fuck it, stupid to argue. I guess was kinda annoyed by what I thought were obviously light hearted posts about the bus which I meant to cool things down being used against me
 

john eden

male pale and stale
It's not about victory John. I'm just pretty disappointed by you in this thread to be honest.
Well if it helps - you have made this clear.

I appreciate that this is something you care passionately about Rich and I have honestly and mainly (!) in good faith tried to get across my point of view and why I think we differ, but I'm not sure I have made much headway there.

FWIW I would still sink a bunch of pints with you and Tea if I got the chance.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Fuck it, stupid to argue. I guess was kinda annoyed by what I thought were obviously light hearted posts about the bus which I meant to cool things down being used against me
It wasn't obvious to me, hence my annoyance. Fair enough though.

This isn't the first time that has happened on this thread either - there was some light-hearted misinterpretation fairly early on about genocide if I recall correctly.
 

sufi

lala
You two are somewhat at cross purposes
And as with this thread, in wider culture I have seen no actual debate about whether we should rejoin the EU.
(cherry picking there) that's a more practical topic perhaps, but one with no roadmap at all, as you say, so it would be an empty conversation - i did try and broker that upthread though...
whereas i think rich is after nailing the effects of brexit so that the shysters who ran it can be brought to book, is that correct?
 

sufi

lala
& you both are arguing about whether those effects are definitely the outcome of brexit, fair enough, that's an evidence based discussion, but not one that i reckon can be resolved conclusively - smoking gun type just evidence isnt available, and as you say, it's become unhelpfully polarised out there, so in the wider world of this debate neither camp is really engaging with the other, preferring to sling the cherry picked memes over the fence zzz. that's not really debating is it - it's recreational grandstanding
 

sufi

lala
My thought experiment is about how it would have been if technocrats took that decision, quietly and UK did a non-dramatic exit from the EU, piecemeal withdrawal from treaties without grandstanding and excessive politics driven stupidness, where would we be then???

it's mind-boggling that the real life brexit process has ended up in this situation where 2 camps can't find common ground, and that's the effect that feels the worst part of it to me - UK capitalist economy is disastrous when it's working properly, and is robust enough to endure some turmoil, so the brexit/remain debate is just never gonna be that clear cut
 

sufi

lala
what now seems guaranteed is that constructive practical engagement with the issues of leaving EU is out of the window - that lack of focus was a bit of a laugh before 2016 (because basically noone on either side thought it would happen), so the ukgov can muddle through whatever agenda they want
 

john eden

male pale and stale
My thought experiment is about how it would have been if technocrats took that decision, quietly and UK did a non-dramatic exit from the EU, piecemeal withdrawal from treaties without grandstanding and excessive politics driven stupidness, where would we be then???

it's mind-boggling that the real life brexit process has ended up in this situation where 2 camps can't find common ground, and that's the effect that feels the worst part of it to me - UK capitalist economy is disastrous when it's working properly, and is robust enough to endure some turmoil, so the brexit/remain debate is just never gonna be that clear cut
Yep - other forms of Brexit were available and actually could have happened, from what I can remember about the many narrowly won votes in Parliament around the proroguing era (remember that?).

So in one sense, Brexit was probably inevitable, but this particular form of Brexit maybe not so much.

Except... it is undeniable that "grandstanding and excessive politics driven stupidness" was a significant part of the energy that led to the referendum result and the subsequent management of the process.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
It wasn't obvious to me, hence my annoyance. Fair enough though.

This isn't the first time that has happened on this thread either - there was some light-hearted misinterpretation fairly early on about genocide if I recall correctly.
Just to be clear, I referred to "your bus" meaning it as a joke - recognising we couldn't agree and showing that with an obviously ridiculous caricature- and hoping it would just kinda lighten things up a bit.

Your reply saying I was confused annoyed me cos I thought you were using that obvious silliness to actually have a go. So I responded in kind and went to bed...

I awoke having forgotten the origin of this particular little spat but still in a mood so I waded in... and then I thought, hang on a minute, this is an argument that is even more about nothing than the usual arguments. And it ain't what I wanna use up my energy on.

So managed to quickly write something approaching a mealy mouthed apology before I had to rush off out. Back now and gonna read through, I hope there aren't a load of attacks in there - if there atecI take it all back!
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
You two are somewhat at cross purposes (cherry picking there) that's a more practical topic perhaps, but one with no roadmap at all, as you say, so it would be an empty conversation - i did try and broker that upthread though...
whereas i think rich is after nailing the effects of brexit so that the shysters who ran it can be brought to book, is that correct?
Yes broadly.
What I want most of all is for UK to rejoin the EU, for that to happen there needs to be (i think)

a) another vote on in or out
b) a majority to win that vote
c) a kindly EU that allows us to rejoin

I feel that c is out of our hands but b can be influenced and in fact, b could potentially drive a.

So, for me, it's important that when someone suddenly finds they can't do something or buy what they need, or they discover that certain prices have risen or standards fallen and so on, and if that is at least in part attributable to brexir then this should be made very clear. I don't want it to be forgotten or just accepted with a shrug,

I want people to realise the million different ways that our own unnecessary actions have made so many things so much harder. And I hope ultimately the Remain majority grows to a critical mass.

But also yeah, I do think the people involved need to be brought to book. I see brexit as very much wrapped up with this Tory government - the oven ready deal which wasn't at all oven ready is arguably what got them over the line.

So I think it's doubly important to show the Tory lies which influenced brexit and which cemented their hold on power cos the two things are inextricably linked. Sadly I doubt they will truly pay, but getting them out of government would be a start eh?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yep - other forms of Brexit were available and actually could have happened,
The thing to me is that I am discussing brexit it very often comes to economics, freedoms and so on - real tangible things that can be measured. I used to be able to do x, now I can't.

And this is natural precisely because it is tangible.

But, for me, even though I could be said to come from some sort of finance background - you know what I mean - despite that, my main objection is not economic or financial, but it is inn fact to the very idea of it. I think people should move towards each other, I think friendship is better than enmity, that being together is better than being apart.

And to me brexit is the wrong side of all those simplistic dualities I just cooked up. Before the vote I remember people debating whether a Leave vote would be seen as unfriendly... and I could see Leavers saying that it is not intended to be unfriendly and non-British EU citizens will not perceive it as unfriendly, and at the same time, I saw my friends who fitted that description declining to have their thoughts decided for them and saying that a Leave vote would feel like an attack on them, saying they would never go back to the UK and so on.

That's what I detest most about brexit, perhaps I'm a hippy at bottom.
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
Just to be clear, I referred to "your bus" meaning it as a joke - recognising we couldn't agree and showing that with an obviously ridiculous caricature- and hoping it would just kinda lighten things up a bit.

Your reply saying I was confused annoyed me cos I thought you were using that obvious silliness to actually have a go. So I responded in kind and went to bed...

I awoke having forgotten the origin of this particular little spat but still in a mood so I waded in... and then I thought, hang on a minute, this is an argument that is even more about nothing than the usual arguments. And it ain't what I wanna use up my energy on.

So managed to quickly write something approaching a mealy mouthed apology before I had to rush off out. Back now and gonna read through, I hope there aren't a load of attacks in there - if there atecI take it all back!
It's all good Rich, I don't think either of us were at our best this morning. ;)

I meant what I said about the pint too - I like this place but the medium isn't brilliant for nuance and I think we both write stuff with a smile and glint in our eye and we both miss that in each other sometimes.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
The thing to me is that I am discussing brexit it very often comes to economics, freedoms and so on - real tangible things that can be measured. I used to be able to do x, now I can't.

And this is natural precisely because it is tangible.

But, for me, even though I could be said to come from some sort of finance background - you know what I mean - despite that, my main objection is not economic or financial, but it is inn fact to the very idea of it. I think people should move towards each other, I think friendship is better than enmity, that being together is better than being apart.

And to me brexit is the wrong side of all those simplistic dualities I just cooked up. Before the vote I remember people debating whether a Leave vote would be seen as unfriendly... and I could see Leavers saying that it is not intended to be unfriendly and non-British EU citizens will not perceive it as unfriendly, and at the same time, I saw my friends who fitted that description declining to have their thoughts decided for them and saying that a Leave vote would feel like an attack on them, saying they would never go back to the UK and so on.

That's what I detest most about brexit, perhaps I'm a hippy at bottom.
I think that one of the reasons that it's so powerful is that it combines those tangible and intangible things - and that is on top of the tinderbox of declining living standards, people feeling pissed off etc.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Oh of course, you know I love a pint. I have never been this long out of the UK without even popping back... I do really miss pubs and of course I never was thinking of crossing you off my pub list. In fact I was trying to stay civil in the other threads while becoming increasingly irate in this one.
I felt as though I was really missing something when there was that last dissensus piss up in August, but yeah, when I come over next would love to join you and many others for a beer or two.
And mornings are not my thing I gotta be honest. In real life, as a rule, I pride myself on generally being very slow to anger... but just after I wake up that quality vanishes and I can feel myself being unreasonable and snapping at people unfairly but even though I know I'm wrong I can't stop it.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I think that one of the reasons that it's so powerful is that it combines those tangible and intangible things - and that is on top of the tinderbox of declining living standards, people feeling pissed off etc.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the tangible things are - naturally enough - where debate occurs, but often as not they are likely a proxy for the untangibles...
As I said, for me, I want Britain to be close to France and Italy and so on. As a person friendships are something I consider as very valuable and I suppose I vaguely like the same idea for countries.
 
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