version

Well-known member
the obvious but still kind of interesting answer is that this is the outcome of a (globally speaking) moderately(ish) well functioning democratic system. This is broadly what people have voted for. You can say that it's a minority of people who actually vote for the tories, which is true, but with some fairly rare exceptions both parties for at thirty years have been triangulating and selecting candidates, making policy, doing communications based on what they think the electorate will like. They also have research systems which are pretty effective ways of hearing what the electorate want, I think. So what we get is a reflection of the desires of the british people en masse, not a perfect one obviously, but the politicians we get and the policies they choose, and how they decide to present themselves, is something that ultimately does come from the weird quirks of british people I think.

You reckon it's that one way? I think there's a fair bit of top down influence too. Europe wasn't that big an issue until it was decided there would be a referendum and the campaigns kicked in then suddenly the public felt it was.
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
You reckon it's that one way? I think there's a fair bit of top down influence too. Europe wasn't that big an issue until it was decided there would be a referendum and the campaigns kicked in then suddenly the public felt it was.
yeah. its always a mixture i think, and it's good to try to tease out the specifics and figure out the exact dynamics of how any particular event has come to pass.

would argue myself that for sure no one gave a shit about europe, but people really passionately cared about immigration. not the same thing of course but the latter got folder into the former in a big way.

tangential thought on brexit, i don't think cameroon, the brexit lads, or the people commenting on what's going on expected the brexit vote to unleash all of the murky drives and frustration that it did. it was really weird for a couple of years coming back to england after the vote and seeing just how much it had got under everyone's skin, it was like it came up in every conversation. the anger and disdain as well, i noticed it more on the remain side, all these people who didn't really seem to have every cared about anything political as much as they cared about this, and how emotionally involved in the issue they were. something weird and intense was released by that redrawing of the battle lines i think. almost a possession.
 

sufi

lala
yeah. its always a mixture i think, and it's good to try to tease out the specifics and figure out the exact dynamics of how any particular event has come to pass.

would argue myself that for sure no one gave a shit about europe, but people really passionately cared about immigration. not the same thing of course but the latter got folder into the former in a big way.

tangential thought on brexit, i don't think cameroon, the brexit lads, or the people commenting on what's going on expected the brexit vote to unleash all of the murky drives and frustration that it did. it was really weird for a couple of years coming back to england after the vote and seeing just how much it had got under everyone's skin, it was like it came up in every conversation. the anger and disdain as well, i noticed it more on the remain side, all these people who didn't really seem to have every cared about anything political as much as they cared about this, and how emotionally involved in the issue they were. something weird and intense was released by that redrawing of the battle lines i think. almost a possession.
Brexit has been the Big Lie that has been used to purge rationalists and rationality from UK politics - it didnt need to be Europe, it could have been e.g. a "stolen" election
 

shakahislop

Well-known member
Brexit has been the Big Lie that has been used to purge rationalists and rationality from UK politics - it didnt need to be Europe, it could have been e.g. a "stolen" election
it's definitely the marker for the end of one period and the start of the more chaotic feeling one that we're living in now. that feeling of rationality and of having a sober manager in charge of things is something that runs through 90s politics to 2016 politics i think. interesting to see if that sort of structure of feeling is going to come back in UK politics or if it was a thing of its time. betting on the latter myself.
 

sufi

lala
it's definitely the marker for the end of one period and the start of the more chaotic feeling one that we're living in now. that feeling of rationality and of having a sober manager in charge of things is something that runs through 90s politics to 2016 politics i think. interesting to see if that sort of structure of feeling is going to come back in UK politics or if it was a thing of its time. betting on the latter myself.
Yeah but more literally tory MPs were forced to accept fantasies about Brexit or leave the government
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
yeah. its always a mixture i think, and it's good to try to tease out the specifics and figure out the exact dynamics of how any particular event has come to pass.

would argue myself that for sure no one gave a shit about europe, but people really passionately cared about immigration. not the same thing of course but the latter got folder into the former in a big way.

Yeah a lot of it was about immigration and it backfired cos it wasn't the solution to that.

tangential thought on brexit, i don't think cameroon, the brexit lads, or the people commenting on what's going on expected the brexit vote to unleash all of the murky drives and frustration that it did. it was really weird for a couple of years coming back to england after the vote and seeing just how much it had got under everyone's skin, it was like it came up in every conversation. the anger and disdain as well, i noticed it more on the remain side, all these people who didn't really seem to have every cared about anything political as much as they cared about this, and how emotionally involved in the issue they were. something weird and intense was released by that redrawing of the battle lines i think. almost a possession.

I think it didn't capture their imagination and they thought everyone was like them.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Well, he's apparently pulled out (which must be a first for him, hyuk hyuk, chortle, etc.)

Just seen this. So all the "he's gonna get 150 backers" was total bullshit. His last act vaguely near frontline politics getting in a final pathetic lie. Such a fucking cunt.
 

version

Well-known member
would argue myself that for sure no one gave a shit about europe, but people really passionately cared about immigration. not the same thing of course but the latter got folder into the former in a big way.

This is what I mean by top down. They tap into general currents in public sentiment then feed them back in in a specific guise.
 

version

Well-known member
Brexit has been the Big Lie that has been used to purge rationalists and rationality from UK politics - it didnt need to be Europe, it could have been e.g. a "stolen" election

It felt like the catalyst for turning the Tory party into the GOP. A way to fast track the British right into the kind of frothing hysterics and conspiracy theorists we've seen in the US for quite some time - at least since Obama.
 

Leo

Well-known member
It felt like the catalyst for turning the Tory party into the GOP. A way to fast track the British right into the kind of frothing hysterics and conspiracy theorists we've seen in the US for quite some time - at least since Obama.

Sad thing is there's probably no turning back, once this cat is out of the bag.
 
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