Germany in the 80s?

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
Inspired by the krautrock thread, where we just slightly touched neue deutsche welle before it fizzled out, I'd like to hear peoples opinions about something that have really puzzled me. Now, no matter who you might consider the kraut canon of the 70s, there obviously was enough indisputable talent to actually make a canon, and I'd say at least 10 names could be recognized as making groundbreaking contributions (like them or not) to the develpment of music. But in the 80s, there was really only one german act of the same calibre and unique influence as the 70s giants - Einstürzende Neubauten. OK, there was DAF, but they only lasted until 81, so they hardly count in this respect. And there was Asmus Tietchens, but he was kind of rooted in the 70s too, having contributed to the Liliental-project and the Cluster/Eno-record.

It's not that there wasn't a lot of brilliant german music in the 80s, there just wasn't the same amount of big flagships as in the 70s... there isn't really a neue deutsche welle canon. Why is this? It's not like the 70s was some kind of freak accident of german creativity, because in the 90s they were back, as brilliant as ever, ruling the world of electronic music together with the british. So why this strange 80s void?
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
sapstra said:
Der Plan / Pyrolator
Palais Schaumburg / Holger Hiller
Yeah, but those two are more or less unknown to anyone but the few experts. The existence and influence of Can/Neu/Faust/Kraftwerk/Tangerine Dream, and probably Amon Düül II/Popol Vuh/Cluster too, is almost basic knowledge for everyone interested in rock history. Der Plan/Palais Schaumburg are as obscure as minor kraut groups like, say, Embryo or Guru Guru. That's not to say that they aren't great or that you can't place them in some kind of personal canon, but it's not like music history would be much different without them.

As for the "bad music era", I highly disagree. I think a lot of interesting things were going on then, not least with industrial and/or EBM, styles very influenced by german groups. But except for Neubauten, none of the really important mid-to-late 80s contributions to these styles was made by germans. And that is very odd I think, especially because there was a huge scene for it in germany.
 
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Omaar

Guest
tangerine dream

what about the work of tangerine dream throughout the 80s?
 

Woebot

Well-known member
hamarplazt said:
Now, no matter who you might consider the kraut canon of the 70s, there obviously was enough indisputable talent to actually make a canon, and I'd say at least 10 names could be recognized as making groundbreaking contributions (like them or not) to the develpment of music. But in the 80s, there was really only one german act of the same calibre and unique influence as the 70s giants - Einstürzende Neubauten.

Well I'd have to disagree here too, and I suppose you may be setting up a strawman for the sake of argument, but there is lots of groundbreaking music from that period, music people are only now belatedly checking out.

I think the problem may be rather that there was a contraction of the music press' cultural horizon immediately after the key post punk period (very latest date 1983, but prob 1982 for all intents and purposes) There was, intrinsically, room in prog/1970s rock for variations on the trope. In a sense Can, Faust and Tangerine Dream (especially the latter) are admitted as honorary progsters/introducing a new flavour. In the same way there was room in Prog for an act like Osibisa.....

Probably coinciding with the whole entryism Heaven 17 thing British music became very insular. Dumped the Free-Jazz/African influences and concentrated on shiny pop. S'funny though cos nowadays German (and European) music is pretty central to the equation. Acid House opened everything up again.

http://www.dissensus.com/showthread.php?t=305&highlight=Palais
 

owen

Well-known member
funnily enough i think neue deutsche welle is much more fertile than the '72 krautrock thing, where it does get a bit choppy outside the canon...lots of great DIY things and little one- offs. i was talking to a record shop clerk on rosa luxemburg strasse last month on holiday in berlin and apparently there's quite a demand for 79-83 stuff, sells for silly prices.
there's two or three reasons for the relative neglect i think, one being that most of it is songs in german, which is an obvious barrier...also the period has been buried for a while anyway, its only been in the last 2-3 years that things like Ze or Rough Trade have become acceptable again...and also i think its a matter of the sound- a lot of it sounds cheap, girly, pretentious and all sorts of non-rock, keenan-irritating things.
as for in the bad music years though i admit ignorance. FSK maybe?
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
sapstra said:
At the time, 1980-82, they WERE considered to be part of 'the canon' of Neue Deutsche Welle, by people like Diedrich Diedrichsen of (the German) Sounds, and by other magazines as well. That they became lesser known after that, doesn't necesarrily mean they fell out of the canon.

The krautrock groups were guite unknown for large periods, and only became really known 1) when Johny Rotten plaid Can in his famous radio show 2) when Julian Cope wrote his "Krautrock Sampler" and 3) when the postrock bands rediscovered them. Maybe the Deutsche Welle canon wil regain fame in the future by something like that as well.
Maybe, but I doubt it... I suppose my question could be rephrased as: Why haven't this happened? Why are Der Plan and Palais Schaumberg and Asmus Tietchens still not as famous and influential as Can, Neu and Faust? (Eventually, I think Woebot is on the right track about this).

sapstra said:
I'm always amazed that postpunk/wave fans of the early eighties followed industrial all the way through into the nineties, and kept viewing it as a really important scene, while at the same time they seemed to have a blind eye for the developments in the house and rap scenes. All really new developments in industrial after 1983 seem to me to be stolen from these genres. (see for instance "calamity crush" by foetus from 1984).
Please notice that I also mentioned EBM, which is something very different from the traditional industrial scene of TG/CV/PTV/Coil etc. Now, I wouldn't really consider the latter scene "important", very little new have happened there since the eighties, but I do find a lot of it interesting. Most of it was highly influenced by kraut (Faust and Conrad Schnitzler in particular), and still, of all the big names only one was german. I find it strange.

But EBM, this is where it gets really interesting. EBM was basically an electro development, a combination of Kraftwerk, DAF, Cabaret Voltaire and sample trickery, and just as coherent and unique a development as rap or house. If this is the kind of industrial you claim "stole" from rap and house, I think you probably haven't heard much of it (the rap-like Foetus-stuff as pretty much an exception, actually). And EBM wasn't a dead end, but became a main ingerdient in a lot of 90s techno, from the belgian old school rave to trance and doomcore. Germany contributed highly to EBM in that there was a huge scene for it, there even was a club in Frankfurt called Techno Club, opened in 1984, and playing electro-pop, EBM and industrial. Yet, after DAF there was no really important german EBM-groups, and this too I find strange.

sapstra said:
I don't consider fusing industrial with older genres like (hard) rock a new development (ministry, nine inch nailes)
And right you are.
 
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hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
WOEBOT said:
Well I'd have to disagree here too, and I suppose you may be setting up a strawman for the sake of argument, but there is lots of groundbreaking music from that period, music people are only now belatedly checking out.
Well, I did say there was good music, but I really don't know about "groundbraking"? In what way? Any examples?

WOEBOT said:
I think the problem may be rather that there was a contraction of the music press' cultural horizon immediately after the key post punk period (very latest date 1983, but prob 1982 for all intents and purposes) There was, intrinsically, room in prog/1970s rock for variations on the trope. In a sense Can, Faust and Tangerine Dream (especially the latter) are admitted as honorary progsters/introducing a new flavour. In the same way there was room in Prog for an act like Osibisa.....
OK, this could be part of the explanantion. Still not convinced it's all of the explanation, though. Maybe I'd be if I'd heard more of the obscure 80s stuff and found it as great as the best of the 70s.
 

MiltonParker

Well-known member
if the key term here is 'groundbreaking', then the technology that was used to create a lot of this music has to be investigated too.

the technology hit the market around the same time as the late 60's youth movement. stockhausen had been on the scene for fifteen years, loudly showing kids how to make music with science lab gear. when the young musicians grew up and hit the scene in the late 60's at the precise moment the gear started showing up, the germans were ready to make music with them.

the 80's did show kind of a dry patch for synth music; FM digital synths weren't as intuitive or spontaneously programmable, most users never got beyond the presets. none of the old analog pioneers really figured out what to do the new machines either, many of them stopped. weirdness returns with analog modelling synths & affordable home studios in the 90's.

the 80's did bring sampling. Hiller was one of the few people adopting samplers to the german aesthetic, I like his records a lot and think people could wake up to them in a big way at some point, though they're not all stunning and the one that received the widest distribution at the time ('as is') probably isn't the best.
 
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polystyle

Well-known member
Fine while it was fresh

Hmmm,
I agree with Sapstra on some points made earlier
and add to that list :

ENB
Alex Borsig, Christiane F
DAF
Robert Gorl
Malaria !
Liaisons Dangeruses
Producer Conny Plank
Der Plan / Pyrolator
Palais S /Holger Hiller
Jurgen Engler , Die Krupps
Nina Hagen

- not so say everything by everyone on this list was essential,
but these other individuals were sometimes important parts of what is called Neue Deutsche Welle.
Gudrun Gut of Malaria ! and Beate Bartel of LD were both in original version of ENB,
it was a social scene , the W Berlin klubs were hot , friends supported friends ,
played one- off gigs with other members of groups,
sharing euro speed and cash amongst others in the circle , going out with each other,
until the energy to explore was spent .
What all the fun appears like now is another matter ...

A 'new wave' doesn't just go on and on ,
didn't exist to neatly paper over gaps in 'good music' .
It was a loose grouping of artists/ groups/individuals living and working day to day

Why hasn't there been a rediscovery' of the N D Welle 'canon' ?
I think there has been some rediscovery ,
from the rerelease of the crucial '80's DAF Albums and Liaisons Dangeruses to the
silliness of a Carlos D of Interpol cribbing his idea of style points by wearing a gun holster he hopes comes across as 'cool and militaristic' as the chest strapped Blixa of old .

It was good enough then when it was happening and fresh , thank you

I did find it interesting to hear Gomma's Teutonik Disaster CD's .
The groups the Gomma boys dug up were really obscure , except for Carmen on TD 1 ,
who seem to possibly be the same Carmen that appeared on D Bowie's 1980 Floor Show' TV special
(in US it was on the show Midnight Special)
 
O

Omaar

Guest
80s music technology

Going with Milton Parker's line on the impact of technology -

as well as FM synthesis and sampling, sequencing was developing also and MIDI arrived in 83.

and wavetable synthesis:

http://www.vintagesynth.org/index2.html

waldorf do an awesome ppg emulation btw.
 

Woebot

Well-known member
Rachel Verinder said:
The free jazz/improv element wasn't "dumped" post-New Pop; see Bristol in the '80s passim and everything which happened as a consequence.

Propaganda to thread, obv.

id have to disagree totally here :)
 

SMorlighem

Well-known member
NDW vs post-punk

Hi folks,
first post here (stealing work time, eh) ; the trouble with the NDW stuff is that, like "post-punk", most of it is quite hidden/forgotten (it needs a Chuck Warner !). There were hundreds of bands, most of only released a single or a EP. The Teutonik Disaster stuff was interesting, though the lack of info about the bands (vol. 2) is a shame... Check this : http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/7213
Great Donna Summer NDW playlist. Don't forget the beautiful Zick Zack catalogue, and small labels like Ink records (who released the great 'Partysnäks' compilation, you can hear tracks from it on the DS show above).
 

redcrescent

Well-known member
I'm with polystyle des on this, who's with sapstra, etc. etc.
No comment from me on 'new' Neue Deutsche Welle, though (Wir sind Helden, Rosenstolz, the abominable MIA...) or on most music with German lyrics.

Thanks polystyle for mentioning Conny Plank, a right genius in my book, he keeps cropping up everywhere. He's engineered, produced and or/played on an amazing amount of stuff, from Kraut classics to 'out' jazz to New Wave. Funny, his Whodini productions aren't mentioned...
His Conny's Studio website is a cracker, too, showing pictures of the studio kitchen, etc.

@smerlinghem
Jason Forrest/Donna Summer is a nutcase in the best sense of the word. He wants visitors to his WMFU site to remix 'Let's break' by Master Genius which I own but have only ever listened to 1.5 times. He's right though, prime sampling source material.
 

polystyle

Well-known member
Synths & tech

About the tech' thing ,
if you really look back at it , the '80's were a high time for synth music.
It was the first decade where post punks could afford a synth , cajole a Roland drum machine to play something other then the latin or rock preset patterns .

Of course , one of best parts of DAF was their synth & sequencer sound (some thanks to Conny) ,
Ditto Liaisons D , Chrislo had a bank of Oberheims on all the time , helped keep his space warm .

Martin Fischer (from Berlin's Ejected) brought his synth to NYC when he came over in '79
and kept it in our rehearsal space downstairs in our loft on Houston St , next time he came he brought another synth he had liberated from Nina Hagen's kyboard player , so we were set.
We used to sit on the roof of our next loft downtown , smoking and bouncing synth tones off the big glass wall of the skyscraper on the next block.

Next group (Ike Yard) I had to have one for meself and luckily got a dominatrix friend to part with her
Korg MS 20 .

Before leaving for W Berlin in 1983 , i found a guy who had a Synclavier up in the production house he engineered at and we started playing around with that .
Some cool new sounds with the Synclavier , ya know that big synth swirl from intro of Shannon's "Let The Music Play" - that's the Synclavier .

It's true some of the German groups didn't use those 1980's synths (not ENB) ,
but many of them did.
Using synths was one of our common links when i arrived there,
and the synth laden Bowie & Eno records influence still hung pretty heavy in Kreutzberg and over by 'Hansa by the wall' .

* Thanks for mentioning /remembering Zick Zack , they should be on the list
* And i do agree there needs to be more info , light shown on the little knowns, unknown German groups
as that was a flush time for creation and many rose and fall back in a matter of months , weeks
 

redcrescent

Well-known member
Some fantastic stories, polystyle. Loved Ike Yard on Anti NY, I think it did a lot to put IY back on people's minds. May this continue.
You mentioned Shannon - some truly awesome flipsides, the dub to "Give me tonight" is amazing.
 

polystyle

Well-known member
That's cool Red
we are working to get Ike Yard rere out as soon as we can ...
Ike was/is pretty unknown , but "Anti NY" did rev things up a notch or 10
 

SMorlighem

Well-known member
NDW : cdr comp ?

[QUOTE@smerlinghem [/QUOTE]
;°) I buy the copyright !

This NDW thread makes me wanna put up some cdr comp (another deal with Diss' Woeboss : get me some grime from last year & I'll trade for obscure euro-eightoldies stuff...). Starting to work on it, got to browse my mp3 files & ask to older spec-ialists !
 

polystyle

Well-known member
not sure which copyright you were referring to (in quotes),
but as for the comp. - you go S M
that sounds good ...
 

polystyle

Well-known member
Black plastic

nicely laid out Sapstra

Thanks for bringing up Abwarts , FM and Marc were good to keep a foot in Hamburg with that group.
Always felt ENB lost it's beating heart and power when Chung left ...

from Hamburg to Koln . From schlager to shuffle/shaffel (sp) ...

Berlin radikal squatterscene . And it was , I corraled this Japanese publisher into hiring me to interview the
Dilettante Genius crew and when we went to see Blixa and Petra they were living in a squat building first floor 'living room', the only furniture was big black plastic garbage bags fillled up with i dunno what .
Still air warm summer stank , but Blixa never batted a mascara'd eye as he held forth from atop an especially large black (of course) bag . Flies and warm Cokes all around

Was lucky enough to get place to stay above Susanna K's Studio K apt.
W Berlin was so underpopulated in '83 that she got an Apt. and the Studio above her as a 2 for 1 deal
Die Haut lived in next building (their drummer who was it , Thomas ? later joined Bad Seeds),
Ester , Iggy's Berlin ex girlfriend lived upstairs ,
Kiddy from Sprung Aus Den Wolken shaved his head out in the courtyard ,
the Doris crew often hung out at the Oranian Bar round the corner

In ol' Kreutzburg there were fierce street fights with the police that summer ...
 
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