BNP on Question Time

[baboon2004]

very good stuff i think Baboon, cheers. re 'tactics' on Thursday's show (i am in total agreement w all who criticise the lightweight, pub thug nature of QT's actual content most of the time) i think his paragraphs where he rightly shines a light on shady aspects of the recent histories of Warsi and Straw carry serious weight.

Paul Gilroy, Riko, Darcus Howe, and, say, Lionel Blue would be great to get on there, but in context, Gove and Cruddas would be far better than Warsi and Straw.

Fucking hell, I don't want "tolerance" to be represented by Jack Straw. Yes, Cruddas would be a good addition to the panel.

 

[bassnation]

The difference is that people get distracted by the BNP instead of taking to task those in power.

For example the campaigns by Unite Against Fascism which are designed to get the vote out so that the BNP don't get in. I.e. - vote for the established parties to "keep the nazis out"...

ok, so everyone knows our "democracy" is broken. i'm with you on that, but thats a much wider strategic issue - in the meantime they are making almost weekly publicity gains. there has to be something tactically that can be done.

i've been very careful here not to single the bnp out, you might note. they all bear the blame, but its them that are doing the running and pretty much awakening all of the latent racism that is present in the uk. feels like we are slipping back to the 70's.

 

[vimothy]

oh for fuck's sakes, this is the cheapest 'argument' strategy.So capitalism (esp of the sort that has been so exposed over the past year as highly hypocritical, and which comes crying to the state when it can't support itself) doesn't prioritise profit over humans then? Which world are you living in, can I ask, and what profession do you work in?

Who said anything about argument? Bassnation said that the rise of the BNP is the fault of economic liberalism and you said that it's the logical end point of capitalism or something. There's no argument there. An argument would take the form of something like, there were no racist political parties until Thatcher took power, so we can blame the BNP on her. There were no racist nationalists in British politics until Blair sold us donwn the river for neoliberalism. Or something. I dunno, just seems a bit specious, if you ask me, although in fairness you didn't, and anyway, what profession do I work in, eh?!?!?!?

 

[bassnation]

Who said anything about argument? Bassnation said that the rise of the BNP is the fault of economic liberalism and you said that it's the logical end point of capitalism or something. There's no argument there. An argument would take the form of something like, there were no racist political parties until Thatcher took power, so we can blame the BNP on her. There were no racist nationalists in British politics until Blair sold us donwn the river for neoliberalism. Or something. I dunno, just seems a bit specious, if you ask me, although in fairness you didn't, and anyway, what profession do I work in, eh?!?!?!?

yes, i think theres definitely a case for the resurgence of the right being in part caused by swathes of working class britain being declared economically unviable. a culture of hopelessness and then one party offering easy solutions that revolve around blame of the other - thats been proven time and time again to be a toxic mix which allows fascism to flourish. to be fair, it lends itself to political extremes both right and left - but that doesn't seem to be happening here, there is no resurgence of the left to speak of.

however, i didn't say that this was the cause of nationalism, as obviously that would be untrue. nationalism is as old as the hills.

i'm not really interested in providing a launch pad for a boring 30 page thread where you argue the case for economic liberalism. i'd rather pull my own teeth out sans anaethestic.

 

[john eden]

ok, so everyone knows our "democracy" is broken. i'm with you on that, but thats a much wider strategic issue - in the meantime they are making almost weekly publicity gains. there has to be something tactically that can be done.

i've been very careful here not to single the bnp out, you might note. they all bear the blame, but its them that are doing the running and pretty much awakening all of the latent racism that is present in the uk. feels like we are slipping back to the 70's.

The best way to counter the BNP is to challenge their actual stated policies and their record whilst in power at a local level. Oh and provide a political alternative to them.

People need to challenge the increasing racialisation of politics and reject representation from ethnic "community leaders". Dividing people up into racial or religious groups has to stop - ffs there is apparently funding being made available for white working class communities now. And faith schools should be banned also.

And I dunno, all the usual stuff about providing a pro-working class alternative so that communities can get militant about the issues which face them.

 

[baboon2004]

Who said anything about argument? Bassnation said that the rise of the BNP is the fault of economic liberalism and you said that it's the logical end point of capitalism or something. There's no argument there. An argument would take the form of something like, there were no racist political parties until Thatcher took power, so we can blame the BNP on her. There were no racist nationalists in British politics until Blair sold us donwn the river for neoliberalism. Or something. I dunno, just seems a bit specious, if you ask me, although in fairness you didn't, and anyway, what profession do I work in, eh?!?!?!?

OK, fair enough, but rolling one's eyes is bound to incite! I've just spent the morning being distracted from work by arguing with BNP twats on the net, so my incitement levels are low, as well :slanted:

From Bassnation: "they handed over control to corporations and threw away true representation". I was just saying that such handing over is kind of logical in a society where the profit motive has become the primary one.So economic liberalism didn't come from nowhere (not that I was saying that Bassnation was saying this, as I was agreeing with him), in my view, it's a logical endpoint of such a system. Then as Bassnation says, cynicism follows and the door opens for those pandering to those who need someone to 'blame', such as the BNP

 

[vimothy]

Hmm, but from what I remember of the '70s and early '80s, there was more racial tension, not less, and this is despite there being less ethnic minorities and less neoliberalism. Perhaps I am rose-tinting the present though. I've got images of NF skinheads and the Brixton Riots running through my mind, and all I can think of to compare it to is a few morons from the EDL.

Do you have links to any data?

 

[john eden]

Hmm, but from what I remember of the '70s and early '80s, there was more racial tension, not less, and this is despite there being less ethnic minorities and less neoliberalism. Perhaps I am rose-tinting the present though. I've got images of NF skinheads and the Brixton Riots running through my mind, and all I can think of to compare it to is a few morons from the EDL.

Do you have links to any data?

The recession is only getting going. You need to add mass unemployment to the equation for it all to really start kicking off.

But yes it is different times, really.

 

[bassnation]

Hmm, but from what I remember of the '70s and early '80s, there was more racial tension, not less, and this is despite there being less ethnic minorities and less neoliberalism. Perhaps I am rose-tinting the present though. I've got images of NF skinheads and the Brixton Riots running through my mind, and all I can think of to compare it to is a few morons from the EDL.

Do you have links to any data?

the seventies was a turbulent time, but i don't remember it very clearly as i was quite young (apart from being beaten up by a skinhead in cardiff which left a mark). so when i say living memory i am talking of my own experiences.
and anecdotally, when i left wales in the late eighties i didn't really encounter that many people making racist comments there. the idea of a welsh defence league marching on mosques is a real sea change compared to how it used to be.

but the biggest thing for me is reading newspapers, forums, blogs, people on the street or in the pub. i feel in a minority for holding these views sometimes. the other day i got asked if i was racist towards whites because i go out with a black woman.

fwiw it just feels like there has been a gradual change starting with the tories under hague becoming shrill on the topic and gradually getting worse til we now have the first elected BNP MEPs and councillors. if you want data then there you go - number of far right MEPs in the seventies? zero.

 

[baboon2004]

Hmm, but from what I remember of the '70s and early '80s, there was more racial tension, not less, and this is despite there being less ethnic minorities and less neoliberalism. Perhaps I am rose-tinting the present though. I've got images of NF skinheads and the Brixton Riots running through my mind, and all I can think of to compare it to is a few morons from the EDL.

Do you have links to any data?

No data at the moment...

There can definitely be different ways in which the conditions for a grassroots dissatisfaction with economic issues, and subsequent rise in racial tension come about. the late 70s were economically shaky for different reasons, I suppose, and yeah, less neo-liberalism.

 

[bassnation]

Hmm, but from what I remember of the '70s and early '80s, there was more racial tension, not less, and this is despite there being less ethnic minorities and less neoliberalism. Perhaps I am rose-tinting the present though. I've got images of NF skinheads and the Brixton Riots running through my mind, and all I can think of to compare it to is a few morons from the EDL.

Do you have links to any data?

the other thing i'd query about what you said is was there really less immigration then? i'm thinking not so much the 70's but maybe a few decades earlier with the vast numbers of jamaicans arriving, which in itself prompted the "enoch was right" marches. the uk has always been a racist country - which is why we need to be cautious when they are on the march and emboldened once again.

 

[scottdisco]

there is no doubt about it - their policies have been driven by the mail, who's editorial line is sometimes indistinguishable from views held by the BNP.
http://enemiesofreason.blogspot.com/2009/10/mail-dont-t-like-bnp-oh-no.html

in addition, we are locking up children just because their parents are immigrants, denying them benefits and many are homeless. the rhetoric about immigrants has at times been deeply offensive and has contributed to the general poisonous atmosphere.

so what if they are getting there by degrees, instead of jumping to the end game? this is all well documented in the uk press and is widely recognised by just about everyone other than the BNP and the daily heil.

correct.

The best way to counter the BNP is to challenge their actual stated policies and their record whilst in power at a local level. Oh and provide a political alternative to them.

a Blackburn mate of mine tells me a BNP councillor there is indeed as much use as a chocolate teapot, so it is this sort of thing that needs highlighting.

People need to challenge the increasing racialisation of politics and reject representation from ethnic "community leaders". Dividing people up into racial or religious groups has to stop

yup. including, of course, George Galloway and the SWP cosying up, at one time or another, to some very unsavoury sorts in Respect.

Fucking hell, I don't want "tolerance" to be represented by Jack Straw. Yes, Cruddas would be a good addition to the panel.

yes Jack 'Widely Applauded by the Express for his surgery views' Straw. he could, and should, have phrased his objections at that time in a far more nimble way. i mean, one of his near neighbours is the Oldham MP Phil Woolas who is, of course, very shady.
a daft remark in Blackburn could lead to violence on the streets of Oldham or Burnley.

 

[baboon2004]

and anecdotally, when i left wales in the late eighties i didn't really encounter that many people making racist comments there. the idea of a welsh defence league marching on mosques is a real sea change compared to how it used to be.

but the biggest thing for me is reading newspapers, forums, blogs, people on the street or in the pub. i feel in a minority for holding these views sometimes. the other day i got asked if i was racist towards whites because i go out with a black woman.

how many non-white people were in Wales in the late 80s (not a rhetorical question)?

People's archaic attitudes towards race and other issues is sometimes dumbfounding. But then i wonder why I'm so surprised.

 

[vimothy]

i'm not really interested in providing a launch pad for a boring 30 page thread where you argue the case for economic liberalism. i'd rather pull my own teeth out sans anaethestic.

Nice one, yeah, cheers for that comment. Hopefully it's got less to do with neoliberalism than with you assuming your conclusion--you know, saying that there is more extreme right now and that it must be because of neoliberalism: that's a circular argument wherever you stand on the spectrum.

You need to add mass unemployment to the equation for it all to really start kicking off

Still time...

 

[baboon2004]

the other thing i'd query about what you said is was there really less immigration then? i'm thinking not so much the 70's but maybe a few decades earlier with the vast numbers of jamaicans arriving, which in itself prompted the "enoch was right" marches. the uk has always been a racist country - which is why we need to be cautious when they are on the march and emboldened once again.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?id=260

trying to find stats further back...

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/Occasional_Paper_42_Part2.pdf see page 3

http://www.iza.org/conference_files/amm_2004/hatton_t129.pdf page 22

 

[bassnation]

Nice one, yeah, cheers for that comment. Hopefully it's got less to do with neoliberalism than with you assuming your conclusion--you know, saying that there is more extreme right now and that it must be because of neoliberalism: that's a circular argument wherever you stand on the spectrum.

i never said that. i said there is a resurgence and that i found britain to be more racist now than it has been in (my) living memory. i'm 37, so i was a child in the seventies. and YES, part of this is a centre right government letting working class communities being allowed to wither on the vine. somehow i doubt very much you grew up in one of those communites and saw that decline first hand. you wouldn't be so keen to absolve the right of responsibility if you had.

thing is, economic liberalism and neo-conversatism being a good thing is your hobby horse vimothy, everything seems to get drawn back to that and if it turned into one of those interminable dissensus political science fests i'd regard that as derailment of a thread on what i consider to be a very serious topic - but thats just my opinion.

 

[mms]

and anecdotally, when i left wales in the late eighties i didn't really encounter that many people making racist comments there. the idea of a welsh defence league marching on mosques is a real sea change compared to how it used to be.

i was in cornwall in the early 80's when i grew up and my family used to recieve broken windows, threatening letters of a racist nature thru the post and nf logos scrawled on the wall outside our house which i put down to part of my family, although they didn't live down there with us, being mixed race, it was scary, and weird, kids i used to get taxis with to school throwing kicks up to my face in senior school, i imagine all those fucked skinhead kids are in hmp now.


There is plenty of double standards out in the provinces, the young and stupid regarding black people as alright, ( probably the cultural legacy of what's cool like hip hop and fashion etc) and asians as being pakis, as if that's normal, but there are more blacks and asians down there, so it's less alien and threatening. I'm sure there are racists there though of course.

 

[bassnation]

how many non-white people were in Wales in the late 80s (not a rhetorical question)?

People's archaic attitudes towards race and other issues is sometimes dumbfounding. But then i wonder why I'm so surprised.

there weren't many non-white people in the valleys to be honest. i rarely heard people make racist comments, but thats not to say that there weren't hardcore racists there. i remember if a black person walked down the street, peoples mouths would hang open. i just think they were unaccustomed to seeing non-white people rather than being boneheads, but who knows? my parents were marxists and brought me up to unequivocally hate racism, despite the monoracial nature of the place.

cardiff is very racially mixed - lots of welsh jamaicans. shirley bassey comes from tiger bay. funnily enough thats where you'd get the nazi skins. last time i saw them was at a napalm death gig in cardiff in the early nineties where they disrupted the gig zeig heiling on the dance floor which then descended into a mass scuffle.

 

[matt b]

i never said that. i said there is a resurgence and that i found britain to be more racist now than it has been in (my) living memory. i'm 37,

I don't think this country is more racist than in the past, but it is now more acceptable to express racist views in serious discourse- the whole "PC gone mad", "Britain is full", "all Muslims are terrorists" rhetoric has legitimised a certain sort of language which has racist undertones (or overtones) if you look for them.

This in turn has led to groups like the English defence league (or whatever) being given the space to be overtly racist.

This is true of the BNP too, 5 years ago, they were fairly careful (or it seems to me, more careful) in their public pronouncements for mainstream consumption.

 

[bassnation]

I don't think this country is more racist than in the past, but it is now more acceptable to express racist views in serious discourse- the whole 'PC gone mad', 'Britain is full', "all Muslims are terrorists" rhetoric has legitimised a certain sort of language which has racist undertones (or overtones) if you look for them.

This in turn has led to groups like the English defence league (or whatever) being given the space to be overtly racist.

This is true of the BNP too, 5 years ago, they were fairly careful (or it seems to me, more careful) in their public pronouncements for mainstream consumption.

ok, i can agree with that. i think thats what i was trying to articulate.