Patter

[Martin Dust]

I've just spent 10 minutes with a guy from Sheffield who talks like he's from Jamaica, except he's white and very middle class!

You're not from New York City, you're from Rotherham

Sprang to mind, I laughed, at him to be honest - what do you guys make of this? I was embarrassed by him.

 

[DannyL]

I used to work with a guy who continually used patois despite the fact he was a white Oxford graduate. It was a bit trying but he was a nice bloke ultimately. Bet he didn't speak like that to his mum though.

Two thoughts really - people are always attracted by "the other" and that manifests in lots of different ways with regards to race. Being hugely into black music is one, but putting an accent on - I find it weird 'cos it seems so un-selfexamined. Isn't borrowing the tropes of coolness from another race ultimately kind of racist? If all that matters about black people is that you think they are cool and "borrowing" from them makes you look cool, then how the fuck are you going to relate to them as people? I've got mixed parentage, but I don't find the need to wear it on my sleeve to appear cool - I find people who do a bit annoying and patronising.

Other point - there does seem to be a shift in accent re. people who're twenty five and under (at a guess -sorry if that means I'm talking about anyone here). There's a distinct pattern of speech that people who're kind of the generation below me use that seems to have a black/patois inflection. This probably says something about the spread of language/slang, integration and shifting attitudes towards race, but i don't know what exactly! I always think of the use of the word "bare" as a kind of generational marker here.

 

[baboon2004]

I always think of the use of the word "bare" as a kind of generational marker here.

That sounds pretty accurate to me.

Isn't it part of a wider unease that most people have with being themselves, and the way in which their voice gives away information that they feel will 'mark' them in various ways? Everyone changes register a little to fit in with situations (to not do so would be somewhat sociopathic), but some people take it to embarrassing extremes.

 

[baboon2004]

Being hugely into black music is one

With this, from my personal experience, music is so racially codified still, that a lot of white people who like black music seem to be hugely into it only because there are billions of white people who don't listen to any black music (outside a very small number of things) AT ALL. In reality, those people are usually just into both black and white music kinda equally (I count myself in this category).

 

[DannyL]

Yeah maybe. Wasn't try to imply some sort of exclusivity there - if you're a bit of a music nerd chances are you listen to loads of music from all kinds of origin points. Just trying to point out that black music is often attractive to people from other ethnicities, and it's blackness/otherness is a factor here.

I do actually find myself changing accents and speech patterns slightly when I talk to people - always weirds me out a bit when I notice it. This sounds like the opposite of what Mal's interlocutor is doing though - he's imposing the accent on the exchange, rather than responding (even unconsciously) to what's going on.

 

[Tentative Andy]

I mostly agree with what Danny said in his first post - but I think also it's sometimes a thing that people pick up via their interest in black music.
I know there's been times when I've posted something on my Twitter feed then gone back and cringed at how I phrased it and how posey it must seem. Without naming names, reckon there are a few others on there who ought to feel the same way.
(Obv this is the dialect aspect of patios rather than accent here).
I also get the impression with some people that it's done as a semi-ironic thing, not sure whether this is better or worse though.

 

[mistersloane]

It's a distancing of oneself, isn't it? Specifically in the guy in Martin's example. A way for people to be ironically involved via language with the subject they're speaking about, rather than talking from the heart. I generally see it as being either quite sweet - as in they haven't realised what they're doing yet - or that they've got a huge personality disorder.

For some reason you tend to get it most with regard Causasians and Jamaicans, I'd like to know why that is, the 'Cool Mon', white rasta type situation.

My accent goes all over the place but I kinda view it pretty much like baboon says, it's kinda the ability to use different aspects of ones own voice in different situations. Maybe people who slip into patois are trying to learn that and it isn't coming out right. I kinda like playing with accents, I wish I was better at mimicking than I am.

 

[zhao]

when you learn english you sound like a Brit if you happen to learn from Brits, you sound like you're from Virginia if you happen to learn from a Southern American, and so the fuck what if you want to speak english with a Jamaican accent.

some people take it to embarrassing extremes.

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how many million times do you think his 100% fake patois was considered "embarrassing" before he started playing sold out shows in Jamaica alongside the biggest reggae artists?

it's not difficult to find white rastas with perfect patois in Germany. at first of course it seemed a bit weird, but i have come to respect them for their choices in life -- "authenticity" is for the birds.

perhaps i feel this way because i myself am an imigrant who moved across the world as a child, who has had to take on foreign mannerisms to survive:

if you like something, go for it. if you love something deeply, don't let fearful people who have no faith or vision stop you from saturating your life with it, and becoming that which you want to be.

with that said, of course it has to be judged on an individual basis... because a lotta cases are clearly just

and that's all they will ever be.

 

[vimothy]

Isn't borrowing the tropes of coolness from another race ultimately kind of racist?

I totally disagree with this.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think Dan's right that age has a big influence in how a 'borrowed' speech idiom comes across. Perhaps there's been a lot more cross-cultural influence even in the last generation or so, as a lot of white kids who've grown up in very mixed inner-city areas (and are either still at school or have left school quite recently) talk in a way that borrows from Jamaican slang and inflection not because they're consciously trying to sound like ragga deejays any more than the black kids are, but just because that's how kids from that demographic talk these days. But above a certain age, I can't help but think you run the risk of coming across a bit Westwood/Ali G.

There's more to than just white kids aping West Indian kids, of course - you've got the London-Asian accent that's kind of Jamaican-infused Bangla-Cockney, for instance. Probably some West African/East African/East Mediterranean influence here and there, too. Which rather makes a mockery of this idea that regional accents in Britain are dying out, because you have all these hybrids popping up through the interaction of immigrant populations with native regional dialects. Fascinating stuff - maybe I've noticed it more than some people because I grew up in a very homogeneous white area and have spent the last ten years living in some of the more mixed bits of London (i.e. not Hampstead or Richmond).

 

[DannyL]

I totally disagree with this.

Why? Persuade me otherwise.

 

[zhao]

Why? Persuade me otherwise.

it is difficult to judge becasue of the confusion between "race" and "culture".

for instance it is racist to say "black people are better musicians"; but it is not racist, and quite accurate, to say: "african cultures include more diverse, older and richer musical traditions."

different cultures focus on different things. beer is a science in Germany, but the culinary arts are lacking compared to, say, China; while beer doesn't even exist in China but we have amazing cuisines.

 

[Martin Dust]

I think Dan's right that age has a big influence in how a 'borrowed' speech idiom comes across.

When I got home I spoke to my wife about it and she suggested that we are "maybe" getting old

 

[crofton]

beer is a science in Germany

hmmph, overrated imo...sorry, back to original discussion.

 

[baboon2004]

perhaps i feel this way because i myself am an imigrant who moved across the world as a child, who has had to take on foreign mannerisms to survive:

but in your case you were doing so to fit in with your immediate environment, which is understandable - I think the original post was to do with people who take on fake accents purely because they confuse talking a certain way with inhabiting the reality of people who generally talk in that way.

 

[Mr. Tea]

but in your case you were doing so to fit in with your immediate environment, which is understandable...

Same could be said of a white kid growing up in a neighbourhood populated mainly by immigrants and their kids, right? Which is different from talking in a certain way just because you think it sounds cool in movies or rap records.

 

[zhao]

but in your case you were doing so to fit in with your immediate environment, which is understandable - I think the original post was to do with people who take on fake accents purely because they confuse talking a certain way with inhabiting the reality of people who generally talk in that way.

but none the less the mutability and adaptability of human character is something i view in a positive light.

and while aping (usually of the privileged) the superficial social traits of another (often disenfranchised) group does not give them insight into their reality, and becomes problematic when there are exploitative aspects involved, there is nothing wrong in and of it (the mimicry) self.

 

[zhao]

talking in a certain way just because you think it sounds cool in movies or rap records.

i think there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, what so ever.

 

[vimothy]

Why? Persuade me otherwise.

There are almost too many reasons to begin listing them. I will try to disaggregate...

 

[Mr. Tea]

i think there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, what so ever.

I wasn't making a value judgement, I was just saying it's a somewhat different phenomenon.