vinyl purists: you are boring. please stop.

[zhao]

why does it matter so much to you Zhao? I mean if you made a decision to use ableton or traktor or whatever, and you based it on your own reasons and reasoning which you find sound and good, why do you care if other people frown upon it?

i think the question of honesty is an important one when it comes to creative work. and i don't like it when it is falsely applied:

honesty is respecting the specific medium and context you are working in, paying attention to, and utilizing its particular freedoms and limitations.

and not trying to look/sound/feel like something else.

so in this sense, something that comes out of the studio should categorically NOT sound like a live recording.

similarly, a live performance must not be a pre-recorded sequence in its entirety.

these things i believe are important, because procedural rigor lends that much more power and elegance to the finished product, while cheating both cheapens and robs experience of vitality.

it's a matter of principle, you see. i could give a fuck what people think of how i do things.

 

[powerpill]

Zhao have you even listened to the cd?

 

[Amplesamples]

zhao did you get out of the wrong side of bed or something?

Martyn makes a mix cd, explains his reason for doing so in a fashion that works well for him, and apparently that's dishonest??

As for 'honesty' being about respecting the specific medium and context - surely these contexts are always changing? When overdubbing was introducedm surely the context changed? As it did when samples and synthesisers were invented. The ideas of what are 'live' and what are not live are constantly changing due to technology.

The medium and context here are being dictated by your own feelings towards what a DJ mix should and shouldn't consist of. Whether these are honest or dishonest are according to your own strict criteria.

If a studio recording wants to sound like a live recording, why not try it? Daft Punk sounded like robots, is that dishonest? Is using Auto-tune dishonest?

It does amuse and annoy me that people apply their own strict criteria to artistic endeavour, and try to enforce a set of criteria on another person like that. If you see these things as 'cheating' (as you call it), maybe you're just not creative enough to appreciate the finer points of using these ideas.

I assume that you're playing devil's advocate to a certain extent here, but this kind of contrariness is rarely helpful, and is showing you up as a person with a stifling lack of imagination.

 

[john eden]

Clearly he should have just used the word "better", rather than "more honest", as everyone knows that is the case, right?

 

[unclerico]

i thought he meant honest as in its a fair reflection of his actual mixing skills instead of an unrealistically smooth and flawless computer mix

 

[FairiesWearBoots]

Clearly he should have just used the word "better", rather than "more honest", as everyone knows that is the case, right?

absofuckinlutley, everyone knows vinyl is better

 

[Papercut]

airbrushing models is not only clumsy but it isn't at all a good analogy for making perfect studio mixes. you might as well say any mastering process on any recording is airbrushing.

Jesus, are you being deliberately obtuse?

They are both a document capturing something, a performance or a person.

Mixes live in a bit of a grey area, only a complete fool couldn't acknowledge that. They are a document of a performance that until a decade or so ago weren't really doctored to take away the blemishes and make them more "perfect" or whatever. If you can't see the similarities between the two, its because you don't want to, because its not convienient to your paranoid misinterpretation of what Martyn said.

Stop talking about studio albums, everyone knows the way they are recorded, its stupid to keep trying to fall back on them. Studio mixes have more in common with live mixes than they do with a studio album. Once again, if you can't acknowledge that i'd be shocked that the state lets you function with any independence at all.

Digital djs are just as boring as vinyl purists, always on the back foot because people don't respect seeing someone play Dj Hero on stage. Stop being so fucked up about, get on with it. Less moaning etc.

You should change the thread title to "Vinyl purists: You threaten me: please stop"

 

[hint]

honesty is respecting the specific medium and context you are working in, paying attention to, and utilizing its particular freedoms and limitations.

Like a DJ who plays at Fabric making a mix CD for Fabric using the same tools that he would use to play a set at Fabric?

This seems like an odd thing to get worked up about.

 

[Sick Boy]

This seems like an odd thing to get worked up about.

That's because it is an odd thing to get worked up about. A DJ wants to do a mix in the same way he'd usually do a mix wherever and whenever he does a mix? Quelle horreur!

 

[zhao]

Like a DJ who plays at Fabric making a mix CD for Fabric using the same tools that he would use to play a set at Fabric?

This seems like an odd thing to get worked up about.

no.

there are lots of people who have said "if you can't do it in a club don't put it on a mix CD".

and IMO it's bullshit.

 

[dave]

“I did the whole mix CD live just because I thought that was more honest than doing an Ableton DJ mix. It is how I would play live - not everything on the CD is perfect, but it’s not meant to be.

He's not saying that using Ableton Live is dishonest for everyone. He's saying that using Ableton Live would be dishonest for him because he wants this to represent his DJ sets.

3. live performance is live performance. making a studio mix is making a studio mix. the 2 are DIFFERENT contexts and

Sure, I agree, however,.. playing live you can play whatever you want, but you can't simply put whatever you want on a mix CD because of the licensing involved. I'm not sure if Martyn had to consider this, but to me it makes sense to just replicate what you do live in a studio, albeit with track selection more geared towards licensing than smashing up the club.

5. i would not want to hear a studio album from beginning to finish in a club, and i CERTAINLY don't want to hear sloppy mixing on my headphones.

I do. I like imperfect "live" DJ mixes. As another example I've listened to Hawtin's mixmag disc about 100x more than any of his studio mixes (which are too linear and soulless).

wake the fuck up people. its 2010. it was time to throw away your BORING BORING BORING vinyl purism fucking 10 years ago. you are the same as people who booed when Bob Dylan went electric, and you are the same as people who wear "drum machines have no soul" t-shirts.

Yeah, I don't think that's Martyn given he uses a computer. (ps Where do I get one of those t-shirts?!)

Anyway hint said it best:

Like a DJ who plays at Fabric making a mix CD for Fabric using the same tools that he would use to play a set at Fabric?

This seems like an odd thing to get worked up about.

Amen.

 

[hint]

no.

there are lots of people who have said "if you can't do it in a club don't put it on a mix CD".

and IMO it's bullshit.

People on here?

I think you'd get more people to bite on that one over at the Hollerboard (but even then, fewer than you might think).

Do you think that Martyn's Fabric mix could have been improved through the use of multitracking etc in Ableton, or similar? I'm not sure that would suit his style, really. Or many of the tracks he picked for this mix in particular.

 

[mms]

i thought he meant honest as in its a fair reflection of his actual mixing skills instead of an unrealistically smooth and flawless computer mix

yes thats how i read it, seems to be a classic zhao false opposition thread starter really, is anyone really that bothered?

personally i prefer vinyl and cds more cos i like the tactility, and i look at screens all day, so i like to fiddle with records at the end of the day rather than more screens, more files, more loading etc....yawn..., i like to try and keep things tidy and loads of god knows what music files are a massive pain. Also if you're willing to spend your money on the luxury of records you're probably going to be more careful with what you have / play / buy, i'm not really a purist i couldn't care less about what people do or like, its what i prefer which is really no ones business but my own.

i love drum machines, never seen one of those t-shirts.

 

[Sick Boy]

The only reason I'm NOT a vinyl purist is purely for economic reasons.

 

[paolo]

Didn't notice any mixing messups myself

 

[zhao]

a classic zhao false opposition thread starter

false opposition? like the time someone said "techno largely comes from Euro-synth", and i started saying that techno comes from motown, funk and disco? false opposition my ass.

lots of people have this puzzling backwards attitude about using new technology: "ableton mixing is fake." well i think it's bullshit weather you like it or not.

 

[alex]

well quite frankly, I would be dissapointed if I was a Martyn fanboy and he made his fabric mix on ableton when he can DJ. Why would you bother doing that unless you were live remixing?

Alas, I am not a martyn fanboy and consequently could'nt give a monkeys

I think he is looking at it from more of a DJ’s perspective, as I believe (this is an assumption) that he presumes that if people are going to comment on the sloppy mixing that he will have to retort with an explanation such as “well I wouldn’t want to do an ableton set” and he wants it to be a reflection of how his set would sound if you were to hear him a.) raving or b.) on the radio. As such I don’t think he has done anything wrong, and Ableton DJ’s (unless live remixing) are incredibly boring not only to watch, but to listen to also.

 

[alex]

lots of people have this puzzling backwards attitude about using new technology: "ableton mixing is fake." well i think it's bullshit weather you like it or not.

it is bullshit. it sounds un-natural, is pointless unless your live remixing your own tunes, and I dont like it.. grr...

 

[zhao]

it is bullshit. it sounds un-natural, is pointless unless your live remixing your own tunes, and I dont like it.. grr...

that's what people said about CDJ's when they first came out: it's un-natural with the auto-cue and looping. and then all the selectors in Jamaica started using them, and now they are ubiquitous and no one would say using CD's is wack.

that's what people said about the electric guitar when it first came out: it's unnatural with the amplification.

that's what people say about every new thing YAWN.

 

[cobretti]

The difference with cd decks though is that you're still controlling the tempo in an analogue fashion even though the media is digital, so unless looping, cueing etc is used the end product will still be very similar to that of a set done on 1210s or whatever.

I'm not for or against Ableton mixing, it certainly has it's place but I'd rather someone went to the effort of mixing manually if they're just going to play track to track. IMO Ableton only comes in to its own when used for chopping and looping multiple parts to create something that isn't possible with decks.