Research on Creativity and Schizophrenia

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Well then we're basically in agreement, aren't we? (massrock, I mean)

I'm just saying that the guy who writes the back-end code for a website (say) is probably less likely either to be perceived as a 'creative' by others, or to perceive himself in that way, than the guy who makes the graphics or animations that the end user sees when they visit the site. Would you agree with that? That there's a bias in what the-man-in-the-street sees as creative activity towards the audio/visual and away from the technical.

Edit: yes, maybe I'm 'assigning value' here, but I'm doing so on the basis of an assumption or bias that I think is quite widespread. Why would my friend's would-be flatmates feel uncomfortable living with someone who does a technical and 'uncreative' job if not for the reason that they felt it made him different from them? And we all know that feeling someone is different from you is usually just an emotional euphemism for looking down on them in some way.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
I suppose, at base, what irks me is people who go on and on about being creative, without seemingly being interested in communicating what it is they're doing (ie more interested in the social cachet rather than the subject itself). That's all. Status obsessives irritate me, however it manifests itself.

And yes, some people do immensely creative things but it doesn't get recognised as such, implying a very, er, uncreative way of assessing what is creative on the part of many people.
 

massrock

Well-known member
Why would my friend's would-be flatmates feel uncomfortable living with someone who does a technical and 'uncreative' job if not for the reason that they felt it made him different from them?
Assuming they did feel uncomfortable, tribalism and insecurity. Quite basic human traits.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
you can be creative doing lots of thigns, whether driving a bus or being a lab researcher, tho i think science is a very diff form of creativity. im not sure if 'creative' science is the same as 'creativity'. it works along quite diff principles doesnt it? one relies - well supposedly - on magicking 'creativty' out of thin air, the other is about usnig existing facts/data etc etc to formulate new facts/data. or something.

i dont see this instant cache for creative people either, unless youre in that field and people like your work. most people outside are likely to hate it/you/especially you for being an artsy tosser.

excuse the typos.
 

massrock

Well-known member
I suppose, at base, what irks me is people who go on and on about being creative, without seemingly being interested in communicating what it is they're doing (ie more interested in the social cachet rather than the subject itself). That's all. Status obsessives irritate me, however it manifests itself.
You and Tea both live around Dalston / Stokey don't you?
 

massrock

Well-known member
im not sure if 'creative' science is the same as 'creativity'. it works along quite diff principles doesnt it? one relies - well supposedly - on magicking 'creativty' out of thin air, the other is about usnig existing facts/data etc etc to formulate new facts/data. or something.
I wouldn't really agree with this. I think coming up with experiments and hypotheses can involve using imagination, dreaming, leaps of logic, and so on.

And conversely making art, music, writing requires discipline and actual work. Getting something down, not just dreaming something up.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
 
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Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
You and Tea both live around Dalston / Stokey don't you?

Ha, not quite, although I do spend a fair amount of time in or around that area, socially. Dalston's the new Shoreditch, dontcherknow. ;)

TBH, I'm quite sure I don't actually care about this whole issue half as much as I must sound like I do in this thread. But what's the use of measured, proportionate responses when you're having a good barney?
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
I wouldn't really agree with this. I think coming up experiments and hypotheses can involve using imagination, dreaming, leaps of logic, and so on.

And conversely making art, music, writing requires discipline and actual work. Getting something down, not just dreaming something up.

yeah i know. as i was typing i was thinking that you could easily argue how so many books/songs etc are just based on existing stories/structures in some way etc etc. its not a perfect argument by any means. but the discipline needed for someone to be good within these mediums seem very different, the way in which scientists or musicians approach their work i mean and the way they seem to become creative. maybe musicians would save a lot of time if they adopted a more scientific work ethic/approach (no one say kraftwerk).
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
You and Tea both live around Dalston / Stokey don't you?

No, in Brixton myself. I wasn't even getting at the 'shoreditch/dalston' thing particularly, more the number of moneyed people in a lot of 'creative industries', for example journalism. I've come across far too many of them, I'm afraid!
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
No, in Brixton myself. I wasn't even getting at the 'shoreditch/dalston' thing particularly, more the number of moneyed people in a lot of 'creative industries', for example journalism. I've come across far too many of them, I'm afraid!

Yeah, I think it was you (could be wrong, though) talking on here the other day specifically about journalism, and the fact that you have to work for so long for nothing, or next to nothing, to actually get anywhere - just accruing contacts, gaining experience, making a name for yourself by doing little pieces here or there for which you may or may not get paid a small fee. And it's not to knock anyone who does that, and if they succeed through talent and hard work then power to them, but it does rather apply a filter in that it's obviously going to discourage a lot of people who aren't quite well off to start with.

Something like that, anyway - I have no experience of this myself, bar an abortive attempt to get into science journalism last year before realising I actually just needed a job...
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
yeah, obv there's lots of people (some on this board, i'm sure) who've worked long and hard to get where they are.

But it's defintiely a closed shop to some extent, given the amount of work for nothing you're expected to do, and still survive...
 

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
in this book i'm reading the author refers to a theory that distinguishes two types of schizoid personality variants, hyperaesthetic and anaesthetic, he then goes on to use kafka and baudelaire as examples of said variants.

IMG_20211019_093355678_2.jpeg
 

version

Well-known member
I'm increasingly skeptical of the way mental health's treated. I'm just not convinced we know enough about it to definitively diagnose people and the way medication gets tossed about can feel like a blunt instrument that can sometimes do more harm than good.

There's also the environmental factor, the stuff Mark talked about re: life under capitalism. If you're being worked to death, struggling to make ends meet and develop anxiety or depression then there's a good chance that the problem isn't with you or your brain chemistry and necking pills and entering into something like CBT isn't going to tackle the root of the issue. The best medication and therapist in the world isn't going to make your wages go up or pay off your debts, in fact they may even drag you further into the pit if they're private.
 

luka

Well-known member
Yeah people get angry and defensive when you say this but obviously we're just trying to bandage people up and get them back on the battlefield
 

version

Well-known member
I think part of the problem's what Virilio talks about re: the waning diversity of rhythms. Everyone's expected to fit snugly into the same sleep patterns, eating patterns, work patterns and so on and that doesn't seem feasible, e.g. we all know "night owls" and "early birds", but society's set up with the idea that everyone's an early bird.
 

catalog

Well-known member
Forest bathing would do it I reckon, or is at least worth a try. But it's thd preserve of the rich dilettantes unless they do some serious shake up of the nhs
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
If you have an underfunded healthcare system you’ll get underfunded outcomes. Create the perfect system (whatever that is), people will still suffer from congenital conditions that present as mental health crises

@version i’m with you up to a point, but go further. Good therapy can create growth that has nothing to with economic value. Not someone in snr corporate realm having a psychedelic breakthrough at a weird retreat. Too many people witnessed who come back from the “impossible“, who then go on to mentoring. People who you could do a 1000 years of CBT with and who’d never recover/always relapse. Chiron, the wounded-healer

It isn’t putting people back on the battlefield, it’s reducing the scope of the fight through some of the toughest work a human can do. But the system creates these conditions! Yes and you still need to triage what’s live and what may be coming next
 
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