what if he wins?

DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
The Iraq issue isn't all that important since Kerry does not have anything new to bring there aside from "we will get other countries involved so they can take casualties with us". UN has a pretty crappy record at peace keeping.

Bush has me worried about the growing surveilance state, the secrecy of his government and so on. Kerry is promising to fix the Act.

Another big issue that completely got ignored was corporate subsidies. I would guess both candidates would do nothing to curb these.

The thing is there are several third party options that are getting NO exposure yet again. I guess I am naive to expect anything to change there.

So anyway, at worst I see this if Bush wins: continuing division of America into two opposed camps (leading to Civil War down the line??), growing budget and trade deficit leading to economic collapse thanks to Japan and China refusing to support us financially anymore, more Bill of Rights violations perpetrated and written into law. I am not sure what will happen at best, it's much more muddy.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
civil war?!?

who and or which two opposed camps will fight? What a deliciously wild prediction: specify, please, please, please.

k-punk thinks the US is doomed too: "I give it five years," he said, between mouthfulls of Chinese food.
 
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gff

Active member
the only thing that would precipitate armed conflict between (white) americans would be cataclysmic changes in the economy, ie when the bottom finally drops out of energy production. in which case the rest of the world will be up in smoke as well. so kpunks 5 yrs is a little pessimistic (haha optimistic?) but in 30? sure, it's on the table, anything is.

our elderly years will certainly be lived in a time when all of the earth's petro reserves will be past their productive peak. hope you have some canned goods stashed.
 

mms

sometimes
oliver craner said:
civil war?!?

who and or which two opposed camps will fight? What a deliciously wild prediction: specify, please, please, please.

personally if it came, i don't think it would neccesarily be between two rival factions, i think it would be between lots of different ideologies and groups, over a large number of issues.
 
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DigitalDjigit

Honky Tonk Woman
I don't see Civil War happenning during the Bush term, things must get way more f'ed up for that to happen.

I am hoping that the American people will not tolerate a serious degradation to their rights and freedoms. Typically such crises were resolved by peaceful means. That was just a worst case scenario.

Economically things look both bleak and bright, depending which angle you look from. There is some progress being made with oil alternatives for example and Bush did promise a few billion toward reasearch in that area. Then there's the whole budget/trade deficit thing as well as the impending crash of Social Security and it's hard to say how that will play out. Bush is unlikely to fix either. For example he blamed 9/11 for the budget deficit when in fact he raised spending (not just on defense) much more than Clinton did.
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
The iraq war is important in the sense that it is a representative example of Bush's "leadership."
 

satanmcnugget

Well-known member
yeah, id like to add in my own defence that i didnt say the two candidates were indentical...not my argument...i said there was little to choose from in terms of foreign policy...and Kerry really isnt proposing much in that area except getting other countries more directly involved so the US doesnt appear as unilateral/to blame for the impending mess...Kerry has been tossing around the same hawkish rhetoric as Bush about keeping the US safe from terrorism, etc.

without saying that the two candidates are the same, i wont expect much except business as usual either way

im not here to suggest that people shldnt vote for Kerry...i just dont see much changing as long as voting is the avenue of change is all

just wanted to add that i know Kerry has suggested that the US will pull out sooner if he is elected...however, the Bush admin also made similar noises earlier on in this "adventure"...ill believe it when it happens...in the meantime things will proceed as they are now...disastrously...if the tide starts to turn and things quiet down, i can see Kerry keeping the troops committed to the area until foreign investors feel safe enough to get in there and make a killing...Bush may be paving the way for a lil peace and quiet as we speak

sorry to go on and on, but i think this rant by Alexander Cockburn is pretty pertinent:

http://www.newleftreview.net/NLR26301.shtml
 
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Tobias

Member
blissblogger said:
(did i spell that right)

when you say "he" you mean Bush?

i would agree with you then re. the Weltgeist

if not, then elaborate!
When I said the Weltgeist is against Bush I was just preparing to give a little lecture at a Negri-conference and my head was full of Empire-related stuff - so my thought was that if Negri/Hardt are right then todays capitalism has objectively left imperialism behind. So a government that behaves imperialisticly is simply not operating on the level of the capitalist development.
That was my idea.
And in a way it's true. If neocon had taken the time and read Empire, they wouldn't be in the mess they (and the rest of the world = us) are in. Imperial capitalism is multilateral.
 
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DavidD

can't be stopped
Most polls are giving bush a slight 1% edge which is within the margin of error. Also they poll "likely voters" so if the election has an increased turnout (there's no question it will) then the polls are going to be irrelevent anyway.

Its gonna be close. I'm voting in Ohio so when Kerry wins by one vote you can all thank me.
 

DavidD

can't be stopped
Today at my school Max Weinberg (E-Street Band and Conan), Jake Gylenhaal (Donnie Darko, Bubble Boy [!]), scott wolf from party of five, the blond kid from seventh heaven, Chris Heinz (Kerry's stepson) and some girl who was on a few episodes of "that 70s show" showed up to get out the vote. I'm a sucker for celebrities. Wooooohoooo go John Kerry.
 

geeta

Member
yup! democracy now even did an interview with the executive editor--the guy who wrote the pro-kerry editorial. the transcript is <a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.plsid=04/11/02/1522253">here</a>.
 

polystyle desu

Memories of green
no more Bushit

Well, voting was a breeze , the not - that - old voting helpers both cool and collected as can be .
Despite what we have been led to expect (Repuglican foot soldiers watching you on the way in and out).
Rding bk all of the posts on this subject is uh , interesting ... i pick a few

'Bush lite' - whoa , anyone who thinks Kerry is that doesn't live here in the US and possibly didn't see the first debate.
preparing for dirty nukes' - maybe in Dick Cheney's dreams , if they coulda - they already woulda .
Civil War' - hmm , there have been times when I have heard people in the South say things that make this scenario seem plausible , but if Florida goes Kerry , some air goes out of the idea that the South (new or otherwise) is a unified block - we'll know soon enough.
There was a feature on the Kerry Anti - Vietnam movie on Public Access the other night , and if any of you saw that or have ever been in a war like Kerry has , there's no way you would say he's Bush lite'

When I saw the Boss Bruce playing for Kerry and the reaction he got and considering what he represents ,
they (Kerry's camp) got over a considerable hump in perception right there in that moment.
And from the result i saw on the Netscape poll this AM , the young people in America will make the difference

Quite easy to make fun of America , we do too - but we are fed up with Bush , how he got in , and the whole fam.
When we stood on our roof and watched the Towers fall downtown
the thought that flashed in my mind was 'it's the beginning of the end of America' ...
but don't sell it short , it's not over yet

And if you think the future's all Chinese all the time , you may not know about the huge problems that lurk under the moment's gloss there . Like basic water for drinking or the continuing desertifacation of Western China that blows the Chinese desert dust all the way into Beijing on a good day .
 
B

be.jazz

Guest
Well, it looks as if it's not so much of a "what if" anymore.
 

dubplatestyle

Well-known member
i, for one, am going to embrace our future of higher gas prices, out of control government spending, more dead soldiers, possible front-door draft, cotinued erosion of church and state, tipping of the supreme court, possible overturning of roe v. wade, intellectual and social backsliding, fundmentalist agendas, corporate payoffs, and environmental destruction. it's gonna be a helluva ride.
 

Woebot

Administrator
Staff member
dubplatestyle said:
i, for one, am going to embrace our future of higher gas prices, out of control government spending, more dead soldiers, possible front-door draft, cotinued erosion of church and state, tipping of the supreme court, possible overturning of roe v. wade, intellectual and social backsliding, fundmentalist agendas, corporate payoffs, and environmental destruction. it's gonna be a helluva ride.
it seemed like it was inevitable. two things we knew: kerry was the preferable option. bush was going to win by a narrow margin. i wonder if anyone on this forum voted for bush, i suppose i'd be surprised. buncha liberal pussies :)
 
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Metatron

New member
WOEBOT said:
i wonder if anyone on this forum voted for bush, i suppose i'd be surprised. buncha liberal pussies :)
No doubt Doctor Craner would have done if he had the chance.

What's with the Republicans pronouncing victory before the fact, anyway? A sinister move, no?
 
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