How the World Sees England
- Thread starter Leo
- Start date
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Alright, if you could can the megawatt sarcasm for a moment and maybe engage with what I'm saying here:
Doesn't this sit rather at odds with the non-stop barrage of soft-nationalist sentiment and imagery we've been subjected to for the last decade or so, both from the government (the one in Westminster, I mean) and other sources? As I recall it started towards the end of the last Labour regime with constant fretting about "Britishness" and "British values" - perhaps as a reaction to Blair's unbridled enthusiasm for devolution, multiculturalism and (notwithstanding his desperate desire to be George W. Bush's bestest buddy) Europe - but really kicked into overdrive in 2010. Then we started getting these endless wranglings about "Englishness" as distinct from "Britishness" - "KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON" - the fact that hardly anything these days can be called "British" without the qualifier "Great" in front of it - the ubiquity of Victoriana in branding, and all the Empire nostalgia that represents - and now the very real possibility that the UK could leave the EU, or at least put it to a referendum that could quite possibly be carried with a substantial margin.
You have to admit that this does not, on the surface, look like a country run by people who think "the [concept of] the nation is bad".
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
If the UK leaves the EU, as is looking increasingly likely, that will constitute a rather different thing from criticising the EU or threatening to leave it, would it not?
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this will hasten the demise of the UK as a nation state.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this will hasten the demise of the UK as a nation state.
craner
Beast of Burden
Nationalism, in it's smallest forms, is the European zeitgeist, ironically as the EU has promoted and stoked this for years. The whole thing will unravel, but not because the UK will vote to leave, because we won't, but because of immigration, migration, tax and currency. Sovereignty is just an intellectual argument compared to these real, gut-level instincts and interests
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, fair enough, I see that.
Regarding Scotland and "the chimaera of left-wing nationalism": isn't it possible, in fact fairly likely, that a lot of the Scots who voted Yes in 2014 and for the SNP last year are not in reality woad-stained, orange-wigged Braveheart fantasists but basically intelligent and rational people who (understandably) don't want their country being run by a universally dreadful Tory government in Westminster that virtually none of them voted for, and (also understandably) not having much faith in Labour to provide effective opposition or substantially challenge the neoliberal orthodoxy should they ever get back into power?
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
If I lived in Scotland - or had been living there 18 months ago - I'd probably have voted Yes. Although as you say, the price of oil going into freefall has complicated that a bit.
Perhaps the most grating aspect of the whole thing was seeing left-wing Scots fantastically reinventing their country as somehow inherently peaceful, socialistic and green - and definitely not, you know, a fundamental cornerstone of the British Empire and the birthplace of industrial capitalism or anything like that.
Perhaps the most grating aspect of the whole thing was seeing left-wing Scots fantastically reinventing their country as somehow inherently peaceful, socialistic and green - and definitely not, you know, a fundamental cornerstone of the British Empire and the birthplace of industrial capitalism or anything like that.
craner
Beast of Burden
Yes, it is, but I've always said that that is a very short-sighted, small-minded way of looking at things. As if Scottish conservatives don't exist (they do). And therefore, in post- UK Scotland, say 10 years from now, a Scottish conservative party may well wipe the floor with an irrelevant SNP. It's a hypothetical, but not a ludicrous one. More ludicrous is to believe that the Scots are inherently left-wing, whatever happens ever.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I think there is a huge gulf between "inherently left-wing" and "left-wing compared to the present Tory government", which is busy privatizing things even Thatcher didn't dare meddle with. There is a widespread notion that the centre of gravity of politics in Scotland is, very generally, somewhat to the left of that in Westminster - which, again, is not difficult. I'm not saying I believe this as a cast-iron fact but I remain open to the possibility that it might be basically true.
For what reason do you think it's likely, or even "not ludicrous", that a Scottish conservative party would "wipe the floor" with the SNP? Bear in mind that even in England, the Tories didn't "wipe the floor" with Labour last year - they got in because of our hopelessly broken electoral system. Let's suppose the oil market recovers, or imagine it hadn't tanked in the first place - why would an independent Scotland of the 2020s ditch a party that has successfully severed ties with Westminster, reversed the endlessly punishing austerity policies and is forging closer links with Europe while England languishes in xenophobic isolation?
I'm not saying the SNP is automatically going to fix all of Scotland's problems any more than Corbyn is going to be England's socialist Messiah, but I think it's at least plausible they could make things better for most people there than they are at present, or will be by the next general election.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well yeah, this is basically what it looks like.