right wing MILFS

[DannyL]

Eurovision is one of those bizarre aspects of modern - post-WWII that is - Europe (or, Eurasia) that I fail to understand

I understand European corruption (FIFA, the IOC), nationalism, televised singing contests

but Eurovision has some greater than the sum of its parts insanity that eludes a non-European, I think

it's always been a celebration of kitsch but I think that gets amplified in it's modern context. Social media amplification and hyperreality,competing nationalisms and so on.

 

[craner]

Or:

Everything is crushed by a flat and artificial personality cult that nobody believes in. As in North Korea, state ideology is an exercise in patriarchal necrophilia: the nation is dedicated, in servitude and as a sacral offering, to its former leader and alleged saviour, the current head of state’s dead Dad. This manifests itself, physically, as a soul-crushing and essentially silly routine of kitsch pageantry, enforced deification and camp authoritarianism. In a way, this makes Azerbaijan the perfect location for the Eurovision Song Contest.

 

[yyaldrin]

makes me think of this

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Everything is crushed by a flat and artificial personality cult that nobody believes in

that universally understood ironic distance between appearance and reality is I assume what lends it to authoritarian camp?

it seems like something that no one (especially those who take it the most seriously) takes seriously. but also, everyone takes it seriously.

 

[luka]

that universally understood ironic distance between appearance and reality is I assume what lends it to authoritarian camp?

it seems like something that no one (especially those who take it the most seriously) takes seriously. but also, everyone takes it seriously.

There's another involution when it comes to Trump. There's an authoritarian camp here but it comes from the ground up. In memes primarily. It's not imposed by the state.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

in the same realm as Balkan turbofolk, I assume there's overlap (with Eurovision)

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

There's an authoritarian camp here but it comes from the ground up.

in western Europe, yes

Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics of Central Asia are a different story

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

which is much closer to how Trump operates, or at least wants to - as fucked up as America is, it has still constrained him considerably

 

[luka]

I mean Trump specifically. How he is represented in popular iconography.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

yeah, similar to ex-Soviet strongmen

 

[luka]

He is the first president, as far as I know, to be given a hero's role in conspiracy discourse. So I was talking about the way this chimes with authoritarian kitsch. What is the same and what is different. There's another involution of irony.

 

[luka]

This happens right from the start with The Donald on Reddit and so on. The God Emperor Trump.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

authoritarian camp only works up to a certain point of severity tho, the point where black comedy can still be extracted

North Korea and to a lesser extent a place like Turkmenistan are post-irony

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

He is the first president, as far as I know, to be given a hero's role in conspiracy discourse.

that's true, but modern conspiracy discourse is a product of fairly evolved Internet culture so it only goes back maybe a decade

and kitsch in the ironic sense only goes back to I think the 30s? following on Modernism, anyway.

not that what you're saying is necessarily wrong, but also his uniqueness is partially a product of the times

one can imagine Andrew Jackson occupying something like similar space in the American imagination of his day

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

pre-Internet (and really, pre-Reddit/4 chan etc) conspiracy discourse complete lacks irony, any equivalent to shitposting

it's wild-eyed or unrelentingly grim or both

 

[luka]

thats not quite true. The illuminatus trilogy might mark the beginning of it becoming self aware. That's in the 70s

 

[version]

Don't forget Pynchon.

 

[luka]

I've just remembered Pynchon.

 

[version]

Also Sartre was talking about antisemites arguing in bad faith and dicking about the way the alt-right do back in the 40s.

 

[luka]

I just wanted to draw attention, again, to the popular iconography of Trump as president and how unique it is. I think it's interesting and weird and new.