Richard Dawkins

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Four or five comments back you were both discussing Greece. Now you want to say, there is no Greece. So it seems like Greece the victim exists, but not Greece the nation of people with agency.

No, I'm not saying "there is no Greece", that's ridiculous. I'm saying that if the Greek government has made a horrific arse of things, it's fatuous to just say "well voters get what they deserve" and that it's the fault of the whole country. Is the impending butchery of the NHS collectively the fault of everyone in Britain, most of whom didn't vote for either party in the coalition?
 

vimothy

yurp
Sorry Mr Tea, that comment was @ Baboon.

That said, it seems equally fatuous to say, oh, Greece has collectively lived beyond its means for years, now it can no longer do so, and this must be the fault of politicians.

Why is it the fault of politicians if Greece's absorption of resources exceeds its collective income? They are a tiny slither of the population.
 

vimothy

yurp
Even for me, eh?

Thanks mate.

Could you explain how it's disingenuous?

Don't feel like you need to tie it into my track record of regular dis-ingenuity, though--I'm sure this would be unnecessary for the other readers.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Are you really asking me to explain why a member of a country's government has a greater influence on the allocation of that country's resources - and therefore bears a greater share of the blame when the economy goes tits up - than an ordinary member of the public?
 
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vimothy

yurp
Mr Tea,

What are you arguing here?

The Greek government has been running deficits because it doesn't take much from taxes, because nobody pays taxes. Who benefits from this? Politicians?

The Greek nation has been running current account deficits for whatever reason. (Nothing whatsoever to do with politicians as far as I can see). Who benefits from this? Politicians?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well if they can't raise enough taxes to buy (let's say) 50 fighter jets, perhaps they should, you know, not buy them.
 

vimothy

yurp
I find it quite hard to understand why we can't simply have a conversation like grown-ups about these things.

"that's disingenuous even for you"

Ignoring the fact that we are talking about international macroeconomics and not, you know, theoretical physics or whatever its that you are trained in, I read that as a comment designed to be spiteful and nasty, which is not something I associate with you, Mr Tea.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, so I was a bit snarky, and yes I do generally try and keep things civil and not get all ZHAO CAPS at people - and of course you're right, this is very much your field and not mine. But all the same, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you would ask:

Why is it the fault of politicians if Greece's absorption of resources exceeds its collective income? They are a tiny slither of the population.

I wasn't faking amazement for the sake of trolling. You know that's not my style. It just seems incredible that you could question why the lion's share of the blame for the whole mess should be laid at the door of the Greek government rather than Stavros the baker. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of governments is basically the administration of a country, right? They pass laws, decide how to raise taxes and spend them and interact with the governments of other countries. Sure, they are in theory accountable to the electorate, which in turn makes the electorate in theory responsible for its choice of government and whatever that government does. But we both know it doesn't quite work as perfectly as that in practice, does it? Governments misinform the public about their policies, they do other things the general public is completely unaware of, they break international law, they break their own law, they create false dichotomies that pit segments of the general populace against each other...
 
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droid

Guest
Id just like to inject to debunk the whole Catholic/Protestant theory of European economic collapse. There may, in theory be something to the North/South divide, but I can say with relative certainty that Ireland is not bankrupt because of a lack of Protestant work ethic or Catholic cultural norms. Essentially its a tale of lassiez faire capitalism, a surprisingly small group of greedy bastards and a Political and media establishment that was happy to look the other way and/or pur fuel on the fire. If you're looking for glib socio-psychological causes you could just as easily look to colonialism and the attitude to authority that it's fostered here.
 
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droid

Guest
Which again you would find to be bollox and land back at greedy bastards again

Well yeah, but without absolving the guilty few of responsibiity I think, at some point, you have to ask why we have such a tradition of electing brass necked chancers and ignoring their corruption as long as they go to enough funerals.

They bear responsibility for robbing us blind, but why do we keep leaving the front door open and ignoring the noises they make as they ransack the house and shit on the living room floor?
 
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droid

Guest
I'm using the rhetorical 'we' of course. If it was up to me they would've all been purged long ago.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Id just like to inject to debunk the whole Catholic/Protestant theory of European economic collapse.

OK, fair cop, it was probably a bit silly to throw in Ireland just because it's traditionally Catholic. It's just funny that, as usual, baboon has made me feel like I'm an apologist for the moustache-twirling neoliberal Illuminati while vimothy has made me feel like a Bolshevik. And baboon was saying "Protestantism = hard work" while vim was saying "liberalism = Protestantism - God"...I dunno, can anything coherent be made out of this? Maybe not.

So baboon, if you don't think Protestants work harder than non-Protestants, why do you associate Protestantism with the Cult of Work?
 

Sectionfive

bandwagon house
Droid

On clientlism, I think the dynamic will change now somewhat as people start looking for a TD that can fight off cuts in a constituency rather then 'deliver' in the old sense. The problem for our esteemed leaders is at the same time the national will increasingly become the local with cuts, tax, privatisation and the rest across the entire country. On the other side people are far more politicised then they were five years ago and we're only at the start of at least a decade of horror. The front door is open because no more then everyone else we're only beginning to grasp who really controls the house. Ending up with politicians and other circles that fuck us over and get away it is hardly and Irish phenomenon. It's the fact that they are now so openly willing to stand aside and let the unelecteds run the show that should have us all worried.

As for the blame. Despite everything we're learned since 2008 we still don't know fuck all.
But we do know the ordinary Greek people are about as responsible for their troubles as the ordinary German people are for their government.
 

vimothy

yurp
Mr Tea,

That's a fair question, asked in a fair manner. It seems like in general you could probably ask questions like that without implying that I'm some sort of mendacious cunt, but I won't push it.

There is also a pretty a straightforward answer: Greece's external deficit is Greece's external deficit, and not its government's.
 

vimothy

yurp
But we do know the ordinary Greek people are about as responsible for their troubles as the ordinary German people are for their government.

I roughly agree with this statement (I think), but let's imagine that person A, gives person B some stuff. Can we agree that person B is made better off by this act of altruism? Otherwise, they wouldn't accept the stuff.

I don't understand how we get from there to person B's government being responsible for the whole thing.
 

vimothy

yurp
Here's an idea: someone could explain why the fact that Greece is unable to fund its external deficit is the fault of its government.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"There is also a pretty a straightforward answer: Greece's external deficit is Greece's external deficit, and not its government's."
Isn't there a confusion here as to what Greece is? Is it the people, the place, the government or some combination of all those things? Either way I don't think that anyone could argue that there aren't lots of people in Greece who have had their wages squeezed or lost their jobs or benefits or whatever through no fault of their own.

"Here's an idea: someone could explain why the fact that Greece is unable to fund its external deficit is the fault of its government."
Tell us this - why is Greece unable to fund its external deficit?
 
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