blacktulip
Pregnant with mandrakes
I guess in the era of clicking 'Like' as activism, his star has finally risen.
Muslimgauze
- Thread starter Leo
- Start date
I guess in the era of clicking 'Like' as activism, his star has finally risen.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
this has piqued my interest, so went and I read all his interviews, which I recommend – they only take 15 minutes to get through and all his beliefs are right there.
I wrote up some of my thoughts. Tl; dr – yeah, he was basically a guy in a room in Manchester who was in love with Hamas
first, MG basically viewed Muslims as a single entity, differentiated only by their level of resistance to the West (e.g. Iran>Baathist Iraq>Kuwait) and especially Israel. This explains some of the stranger parts of his politics. Like: how he was so opposed to Western interference in Muslim lands but perfectly fine with Muslims intervening in each other’s affairs, i.e. Iran in WB/Gaza; why he was able to support Iran during the Iran-Iraq War – even call for it to annex Iraq – but later support Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait on irredentist grounds*; why an avowedly irreligious Westerner so heavily favored Islamists and repressive theocracies – they’re virtually always more hostile to the West/Israel, and possibly he also saw them as representing a more pure, non-Westernized Islamic culture.
his larger concern was the removal of all foreign influence – theoretically as a general principle but virtually always in reference to the West (and earlier USSR) in Muslim lands – to allow national self-determination (“what the people want”). clearly it would be ridiculous to dispute the fact of hypocritical, self-serving Western meddling in the ME. however, making resistance to the West your only criteria leads, eventually, to supporting very nasty regimes or groups, as MG became an apologist for Iran, Islamist atrocities in the Algerian Civil War, the Taliban, etc. he also had little if any understanding of the inner dynamics (tribal, ethnic, etc) of the places he was talking about and a poorly defined notion of self-determination – more like whoever seizes power once foreign influence is removed.
MG’s willful ignorance is one of the weirdest things about him. it seems almost like a conscious point of pride, i.e. “I work from the heart”, but at the same time he always refers to his music as coming from “political facts”. In fact he claims these political facts are the only influence on his music. you’d think a man so interested in facts would make an effort to learn more of them, but, I guess not.
unsurprisingly MG had something of a persecution complex. he both disdained the need for recognition and complained that he was being ignored b/c of his views. there’s an insinuation, both from him and fans, of a lone voice in Zionist media dominated wilderness to speaking truth to power. it would be too simple to draw a direct parallel from MG to Islamist and Shiite martyrdom but at the same time there’s something there, as well the fanaticism you often see in adult converts to any religion or cause.
everything else about MG is, anyway, far secondary to Isr/Pal, his position on which can be summed up as; 100% against Israel, all problems are solely Israel’s fault, all tactics of resistance are justified, unconditional support to PLO/Hamas/IJ, no compromise until Israel’s total defeat and expulsion. this is, afaik, basically Hamas’s own position, except possibly more extreme since MG didn’t allow for compromise under any circumstances no matter the Israeli concessions. He did, despite dedicating “Betrayal” to Arafat, come to embrace a Provo style Kalashnikov + ballot box (or, mediated negotiation) strategy – whatever worked, so long as it lead to the end of Israel and Palestinian liberation. I do appreciate his honesty about his views, that he never sugarcoated anything. You’d hard be hard-pressed to find many Westerners, even among the most fervent supporters of Palestinian liberation, who’d unequivocally embrace suicide bombing and killing civilians.
was he an anti-Semite? or, recognizing that as a misnomer, was he anti-Jewish in a bigoted sense, in addition to or as a part of his anti-Zionism? He never made any overtly anti-Jewish statements and though he was VERY forthright about killing Israelis it was always in the context of liberation struggle and retribution for Israeli actions. however, he also denied the existence of any good Israelis, i.e. “the whole people are disgusting” (presumably not including Arab Israelis). It’s not an exaggeration to describe his fixation on Israel (which he invariably called “the vile regime) as pathological, and it’s difficult not to sense something ugly lurking beneath the surface. absolutely, I’d distinguish him from Holocaust deniers or whatever, but I do think his feelings about Israel were so strong they may have gradually bled over into prejudice. put it this way – he’s not the best example to cite when you’re arguing for the difference between anti-Zionism and (as commonly defined) anti-Semitism.
one other thing that has to be mentioned is the guy’s amazing prescience. he was basically dead-on about the rise of protracted global jihad (and the West’s role in that rise), something tons of Arabists, security types and other experts totally whiffed on. granted, he viewed it in terms of general anti-Western resistance rather than fundamentalist theology, but still, as far back as the mid-80s, with everyone else still mired in the Cold War, MG was envisioning an endless, all-consuming struggle in the ME that would suck in huge portions of the world, extraterritorial jihadist networks, popular movements toppling Arab dictators. whether it’s just history coinciding with his ideology or he really had some deep intuitive understanding I have no idea, maybe some of both. what he didn’t foresee was that war, revolution and jihadi struggle would actually lead, not to pan-Islamism, but to balkanization and erosion of national sovereignty in the Arab world. it’s not hard to imagine what his take on things like the U.S. invasions or the Western-backed toppling of his hero Gadhafi would’ve been, but there’s absolutely no way shoehorn the multi-sided, by proxy, DRC-style nightmare Syria has become into any Islam vs. foreign oppression narrative.
*i.e. that Kuwait is an artificial creation of the British that historically was a part of Iraq (how accurate this is I don’t know) and thus Iraq had a right to take it back
I wrote up some of my thoughts. Tl; dr – yeah, he was basically a guy in a room in Manchester who was in love with Hamas
first, MG basically viewed Muslims as a single entity, differentiated only by their level of resistance to the West (e.g. Iran>Baathist Iraq>Kuwait) and especially Israel. This explains some of the stranger parts of his politics. Like: how he was so opposed to Western interference in Muslim lands but perfectly fine with Muslims intervening in each other’s affairs, i.e. Iran in WB/Gaza; why he was able to support Iran during the Iran-Iraq War – even call for it to annex Iraq – but later support Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait on irredentist grounds*; why an avowedly irreligious Westerner so heavily favored Islamists and repressive theocracies – they’re virtually always more hostile to the West/Israel, and possibly he also saw them as representing a more pure, non-Westernized Islamic culture.
his larger concern was the removal of all foreign influence – theoretically as a general principle but virtually always in reference to the West (and earlier USSR) in Muslim lands – to allow national self-determination (“what the people want”). clearly it would be ridiculous to dispute the fact of hypocritical, self-serving Western meddling in the ME. however, making resistance to the West your only criteria leads, eventually, to supporting very nasty regimes or groups, as MG became an apologist for Iran, Islamist atrocities in the Algerian Civil War, the Taliban, etc. he also had little if any understanding of the inner dynamics (tribal, ethnic, etc) of the places he was talking about and a poorly defined notion of self-determination – more like whoever seizes power once foreign influence is removed.
MG’s willful ignorance is one of the weirdest things about him. it seems almost like a conscious point of pride, i.e. “I work from the heart”, but at the same time he always refers to his music as coming from “political facts”. In fact he claims these political facts are the only influence on his music. you’d think a man so interested in facts would make an effort to learn more of them, but, I guess not.
unsurprisingly MG had something of a persecution complex. he both disdained the need for recognition and complained that he was being ignored b/c of his views. there’s an insinuation, both from him and fans, of a lone voice in Zionist media dominated wilderness to speaking truth to power. it would be too simple to draw a direct parallel from MG to Islamist and Shiite martyrdom but at the same time there’s something there, as well the fanaticism you often see in adult converts to any religion or cause.
everything else about MG is, anyway, far secondary to Isr/Pal, his position on which can be summed up as; 100% against Israel, all problems are solely Israel’s fault, all tactics of resistance are justified, unconditional support to PLO/Hamas/IJ, no compromise until Israel’s total defeat and expulsion. this is, afaik, basically Hamas’s own position, except possibly more extreme since MG didn’t allow for compromise under any circumstances no matter the Israeli concessions. He did, despite dedicating “Betrayal” to Arafat, come to embrace a Provo style Kalashnikov + ballot box (or, mediated negotiation) strategy – whatever worked, so long as it lead to the end of Israel and Palestinian liberation. I do appreciate his honesty about his views, that he never sugarcoated anything. You’d hard be hard-pressed to find many Westerners, even among the most fervent supporters of Palestinian liberation, who’d unequivocally embrace suicide bombing and killing civilians.
was he an anti-Semite? or, recognizing that as a misnomer, was he anti-Jewish in a bigoted sense, in addition to or as a part of his anti-Zionism? He never made any overtly anti-Jewish statements and though he was VERY forthright about killing Israelis it was always in the context of liberation struggle and retribution for Israeli actions. however, he also denied the existence of any good Israelis, i.e. “the whole people are disgusting” (presumably not including Arab Israelis). It’s not an exaggeration to describe his fixation on Israel (which he invariably called “the vile regime) as pathological, and it’s difficult not to sense something ugly lurking beneath the surface. absolutely, I’d distinguish him from Holocaust deniers or whatever, but I do think his feelings about Israel were so strong they may have gradually bled over into prejudice. put it this way – he’s not the best example to cite when you’re arguing for the difference between anti-Zionism and (as commonly defined) anti-Semitism.
one other thing that has to be mentioned is the guy’s amazing prescience. he was basically dead-on about the rise of protracted global jihad (and the West’s role in that rise), something tons of Arabists, security types and other experts totally whiffed on. granted, he viewed it in terms of general anti-Western resistance rather than fundamentalist theology, but still, as far back as the mid-80s, with everyone else still mired in the Cold War, MG was envisioning an endless, all-consuming struggle in the ME that would suck in huge portions of the world, extraterritorial jihadist networks, popular movements toppling Arab dictators. whether it’s just history coinciding with his ideology or he really had some deep intuitive understanding I have no idea, maybe some of both. what he didn’t foresee was that war, revolution and jihadi struggle would actually lead, not to pan-Islamism, but to balkanization and erosion of national sovereignty in the Arab world. it’s not hard to imagine what his take on things like the U.S. invasions or the Western-backed toppling of his hero Gadhafi would’ve been, but there’s absolutely no way shoehorn the multi-sided, by proxy, DRC-style nightmare Syria has become into any Islam vs. foreign oppression narrative.
*i.e. that Kuwait is an artificial creation of the British that historically was a part of Iraq (how accurate this is I don’t know) and thus Iraq had a right to take it back
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
also, a few relevant quotes from MG on Israel + Palestine:
"The principal influence behind Muslimgauze is the political facts of the Middle East, though support for PLO/Hamas is the main backbone - direct action of all form is justified"
"Any so-called "peace talks" will fail unless occupied territories are relinquished to start a process of total Israeli retreat and defeat."
Does Jones, for example, agree with outspoken accord opponent Edward Said, who found the October 23 Hamas bombing of a Tel Aviv bus a "criminal and . . . stupid" catastrophe?
"They're doing what they think is right," Jones says of Hamas. "They're fighting for the people. I don't think you can criticize them from the outside."
Didn't you find the attack at the very least counterproductive?
"I don't think so. No. Those people have got absolutely nothing. They're working from zero. They can't vote."
There must be other forms of resistance.
"There isn't."
[following discussion of Baruch Goldstein and the Hebron massacre]
Interviewer – "Last night a 14 year old boy with dynamite taped to his body rode his bicycle into a group of Israelis and blew himself up, killing several people...
MG – Those things will always happen until Palestine is Zionist free. There will always be legitimate targets."
"It's such a vile regime, the Arab culture is so creative as opposed to what Israel does. The "invisible hands of revenge" [as mentioned in the sleeve notes of Salaam Alekum, Bastard] refer to anyone that kills Palestinian's, it's that simple. If you kill someone you deserve what you get."
Interviewer – "Do you have complete animosity toward the state of Israel and its people or would you exempt certain Israelis that you might consider good people?
MG – No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't talk to any of them, the whole people are disgusting so no, I wouldn't. Just look at the record of what they've done, it's incredible. So I would not tolerate anything to do with Israel"
Interviewer – "What do you see as the ultimate outcome of the conflict between Palestine and Israel?
MG – As it should rightfully be: the state of Palestine with Jerusalem as the capital."
"Do you think there will be a complete displacement of the entire state of Israel?
Yeah, the sooner the better. Hamas. and Islamic Jihad have taken Israel on while the PLO talks. They are funded by most Arab states I should think. Most certainly Syria and Iran."
"The principal influence behind Muslimgauze is the political facts of the Middle East, though support for PLO/Hamas is the main backbone - direct action of all form is justified"
"Any so-called "peace talks" will fail unless occupied territories are relinquished to start a process of total Israeli retreat and defeat."
Does Jones, for example, agree with outspoken accord opponent Edward Said, who found the October 23 Hamas bombing of a Tel Aviv bus a "criminal and . . . stupid" catastrophe?
"They're doing what they think is right," Jones says of Hamas. "They're fighting for the people. I don't think you can criticize them from the outside."
Didn't you find the attack at the very least counterproductive?
"I don't think so. No. Those people have got absolutely nothing. They're working from zero. They can't vote."
There must be other forms of resistance.
"There isn't."
[following discussion of Baruch Goldstein and the Hebron massacre]
Interviewer – "Last night a 14 year old boy with dynamite taped to his body rode his bicycle into a group of Israelis and blew himself up, killing several people...
MG – Those things will always happen until Palestine is Zionist free. There will always be legitimate targets."
"It's such a vile regime, the Arab culture is so creative as opposed to what Israel does. The "invisible hands of revenge" [as mentioned in the sleeve notes of Salaam Alekum, Bastard] refer to anyone that kills Palestinian's, it's that simple. If you kill someone you deserve what you get."
Interviewer – "Do you have complete animosity toward the state of Israel and its people or would you exempt certain Israelis that you might consider good people?
MG – No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't talk to any of them, the whole people are disgusting so no, I wouldn't. Just look at the record of what they've done, it's incredible. So I would not tolerate anything to do with Israel"
Interviewer – "What do you see as the ultimate outcome of the conflict between Palestine and Israel?
MG – As it should rightfully be: the state of Palestine with Jerusalem as the capital."
"Do you think there will be a complete displacement of the entire state of Israel?
Yeah, the sooner the better. Hamas. and Islamic Jihad have taken Israel on while the PLO talks. They are funded by most Arab states I should think. Most certainly Syria and Iran."
blacktulip
Pregnant with mandrakes
Wow. Sincere thanks for that. Sometimes this place really comes up trumps and your legwork and analysis above is a shining example.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I wonder if somewhere in the Middle East there's a guy who's never been anywhere near the British Isles but is obsessed with Catholicism and the Irish Republican cause and churns out millions of techno records with samples of bagpipes and bodhrans on them called things like Shankill Semtex Martyr?
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blacktulip
Pregnant with mandrakes
That is a hilarious thought.
Actually even before reading Padraig's summary i realized that my earlier statements regarding MG's "clear ethical vision" needs revision -- particularly after befriending a North African/Arabic/Jewish musician who has both imbued a more well rounded understanding of Israeli society as well as Bryn Jones, having had more or less direct contact with him.
Yes, Jones was, to understate, a weird dude. He not only never set foot in the middle east but didn't actually know much about what is going on and has gone on in the entire region - in keeping with Padraig's summary - and his entire project seems to rest on newspaper headlines, a very orientalist exoticism, and pure fantasy.
As such. Quality control issues aside, there is quite simply a lot of unbelievably amazing pieces in the gargantuan discography which are unparalleled to this day in any genre.
Also, mysterious circumstances around his death warrants a note: Ruled as suicide, a few months after the anti-live-performance artist announced a tour... Poisoned by a very rare fungus, a kind which has indeed been used by the Mossad in previous assassinations. Not saying one way or another, just saying.
Yes, Jones was, to understate, a weird dude. He not only never set foot in the middle east but didn't actually know much about what is going on and has gone on in the entire region - in keeping with Padraig's summary - and his entire project seems to rest on newspaper headlines, a very orientalist exoticism, and pure fantasy.
As such. Quality control issues aside, there is quite simply a lot of unbelievably amazing pieces in the gargantuan discography which are unparalleled to this day in any genre.
Also, mysterious circumstances around his death warrants a note: Ruled as suicide, a few months after the anti-live-performance artist announced a tour... Poisoned by a very rare fungus, a kind which has indeed been used by the Mossad in previous assassinations. Not saying one way or another, just saying.
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i seem to remember this conversation being part of another thread or maybe i'm just high
nomos
Administrator
I can see the Boomkat listing, now...
"** Limited Edition backwards-loaded cassette + pogs ** Recently saved from a Gaza skip and lovingly remastered ..."
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Jones bumped off by Mossad? It's an intriguing idea but I kind of doubt whether anyone in Israel or elsewhere in the ME had heard of him. He wasn't exactly Top Of The Pops material in his own country. And he was active in the very early days of the WWW, before Myspace, Youtube, Spotify etc. made it easy to share/transmit music on demand all over the world instantaneously. I could be wrong of course - anyone know if he had much of a following in the region?
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you could find his CDs in nearly all record shops in the US back in the 90s... (i wanted to buy all of them)
i doubt the Noise/Experimental sections of indie record shops in Afghanistan or Iraq in the 90s were so well stocked... what i meant is that as relatively minor as he was in terms of charts, his work did circulate quite a bit in other parts of the world, and he was certainly the most outspoken on these issues in probably the entire music industry...
john eden
male pale and stale
Thanks Padraig, great stuff.
I'm interested in why there seems to be resurgence of interest in Muslimgauze now?
I saw there was an article about him on The Vinyl Factory site - is there other stuff going around?
He's cropped up a few times recently - where did people hear about him?
I'm interested in why there seems to be resurgence of interest in Muslimgauze now?
I saw there was an article about him on The Vinyl Factory site - is there other stuff going around?
He's cropped up a few times recently - where did people hear about him?
maybe as part of growing interest in Mid Eastern and N.Afrikan sounds in general in recent years, Omar Souleyman, Tinariwen, etc., and now Acid Arab... as related to the whole "global bass" thing.
also his music is that strong, and does not sound dated at all, in fact quite fresh in 2014, entirely unlike other eastern tinged stuff or music in general from the 80s and 90s... (aging better than a lot of stuff from 2014 lol) and the massive amount of it definitely warrants further evaluation.