pattycakes_

Well-known member
One day we'll all come the realisation that it is in fact us, who are cancelled. It's why we cannot enjoy things like music and drugs the way we used to.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
It's possible, of course, both that he was victimized by the media and that he is simply not a very good politician.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
.... and Idk about that. You could say people got to know him and saw what he was like.
He was always going to be a tough sell and the primo moment was in 2017 when he still had the flush of newness about him.
Things like his response to Skirpal didn't help (did him a bit of damage in those "red wall" seats.
I will read the article before commenting further though.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Read it now - didn't tell me much much I've not heard before or change my mind. But I can accept I'm too deep into my own set of beliefs to be shifted much. The central claims are that Tom Bower's book made some big errors which isn't really (mass) media critique as such. I thought they'd focus on the papers.
I've read the argument that the media actually went light on him (!) in that there wasn't a really deep, journalistic investigation of his foreign policy views.
Incidentally, I did read this earlier this year (Corbynism - Matt Bolton and Fred Harry Pitts) and it's great, though very critical. But it does take him and his ideas seriously, and looks at their intellectual antecedents in the Labour Party and on the Left. It's coming from a critical Marxist perspective so it's a critique from the Left. I did find their presentation of Marxism utterly compelling and want to read up on it more, when I'm not swimming in books.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
I've read the argument that the media actually went light on him (!) in that there wasn't a really deep, journalistic investigation of his foreign policy views.
Only light in the sense that they weren't interested in discussing Corbyn or Labour policy on anything.

Incidentally, I did read this earlier this year (Corbynism - Matt Bolton and Fred Harry Pitts) and it's great, though very critical. But it does take him and his ideas seriously, and looks at their intellectual antecedents in the Labour Party and on the Left. It's coming from a critical Marxist perspective so it's a critique from the Left.
Interesting. Pre-reading I'm guessing they critique Corbyn for not being very left at all.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Things like his response to Skirpal didn't help (did him a bit of damage in those "red wall" seats.
Up here, actually in red wall territory, it was nearly all about Brexit. As in: "We voted for Brexit and we want it. We certainly don't want another vote which we might lose." Which was what Labour policy was offering in 2019. Hence all the UKIP votes (of which there were a lot) went to the Tories.

And of course any credit Corbyn had built up in 2017 had all gone. Mostly because of Brexit, but also because "Corbyn is awful" was by then an established factoid. You could hardly find anyone willing even to contemplate the contrary.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Up here, actually in red wall territory, it was nearly all about Brexit. As in: "We voted for Brexit and we want it. We certainly don't want another vote which we might lose." Which was what Labour policy was offering in 2019. Hence all the UKIP votes (of which there were a lot) went to the Tories.
At the risk of going over what is now very old ground, it's important to remember that 2/3 of Labour voters voted Remain. (I appreciate you're not saying Labour would have won if it had adopted an unequivocally pro-Brexit stance, but I have seen people make this argument. Really, I think the whole issue of Brexit was a poisoned chalice for Labour from the start and it would have been difficult if not impossible for any Labour leader to navigate. )
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Only light in the sense that they weren't interested in discussing Corbyn or Labour policy on anything.
I'd agree that there's some truth in that.

Interesting. Pre-reading I'm guessing they critique Corbyn for not being very left at all.

Not exactly. Not the right kind of Left maybe? They use their Marxist framework and a reworking of the labour theory of value to attack his Brexit position (and they situate that very well, going back over the history with Tony Benn and so forth).

Further, they also say that Corbyn and those around him used a "personalised critique" of capitalism (one focused on corrupt and greedy individuals etc) rather than one that talks about how we are all compelled to produce value and the inequality is a product of inevitable, abstract forces that are a product of capitalist social relations. They go onto connect this personalised critique with antisemitism. It's a strong argument IMO (but I am a hater). I have to say, I've no idea how discussion of abstract forces would translate into an election campaigning though. Surely better to have an enemy with a face.
 

Leo

Well-known member
in general, there are lots of good legislators who just aren't cut out to be party leaders. being a good pol and being an effective party leader occasionally overlap but are often two different things. in the US, Adam Schiff is a great representative but would probably fail as leader of the Democratic Party.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Peter Oborne & David Hearst on the media assassination of Jeremy Corbyn...

There are some very strange claims made in this article, such as:

"For an equally vociferous and ardent army of his supporters, Corbyn tripled party membership, banished austerity..."

Would even the most enthusiastic Corbynite claim this? In what way has austerity been "banished"? That will come as news to the millions of sick, disabled and unemployed still suffering under yet another awful Tory government, won't it? And councils still being forced to cut basic services on account of ever-shrinking budgets?

It's also pretty disingenuous to write off the sum total of Milne's involvement with the Russian government as "hobnobbing". Playing a key role in propagating pro-Russian/pro-Assad conspiracy theories to cover up for atrocities in the Syrian civil war is not the same thing as a chinwag and a cuppa.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Would even the most enthusiastic Corbynite claim this? In what way has austerity been "banished"?
Banished from the political discourse of the Labour party – and to a large extent from the national discourse. Though, as you say, that hasn't made much real difference with this government in power.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Banished from the political discourse of the Labour party – and to a large extent from the national discourse. Though, as you say, that hasn't made much real difference with this government in power.
OK, that makes a bit more sense, and is a good thing as far as it goes.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Yeah if you think back to Miliband there was no alternative to austerity on the table for the mainstream parties.

(there were things like UK Uncut, Occupy, student protests, big TUC marches etc)
 
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