Jeremy Corbyn

sufi

lala
corbyn a 'dangerous man?' Give me a break. A dangerous man would have resigned from his party when they went to war with Iraq and plotted his political rise. Dangerous my constepated arse.

Corbyn says that internet access is a human right and should be free
seems like an obvious and nice thing? what possible objection could the toxic centrists conjure up i wonder?

more likely that we will never ever get free internets now that the very concept is smirched with corbynism :( like midas but everything he touches turns to shit
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Corbyn says that internet access is a human right and should be free
seems like an obvious and nice thing? what possible objection could the toxic centrists conjure up i wonder?

more likely that we will never ever get free internets now that the very concept is smirched with corbynism :( like midas but everything he touches turns to shit

Guess too many muzlamic terrorists will be raised without alastair campbell putting em right.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please

thirdform

Well-known member
Fair point, I guess that more than makes up for arguing for Ukraine to be abandoned to its fate.

He's a jolly good egg, all told.

has he actually argued this though? It's easy enough to pull a soundbight and build a whole political position around it. He probably said something stupid like this is due to nato aggression — a highly reductionist statement, which discounts russia's transition to being a major capitalist power. But it's hardly like oh let Ukraine get pillaged.

Actually nvm. don't answer that.

Are you arguing for continuing the war?
 
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version

Warehouse Operative
This is what he said.

“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. “We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”

“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”

He added: “This war is disastrous for the people of Ukraine, for the people of Russia, and for the safety and security of the whole world, and therefore there has to be much more effort put into peace.”

He called for the UN to be “much more centre stage”, and suggested involving other international bodies such as the African Union or the League of Arab States if the UN were unable to help negotiate a ceasefire.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
@version I think calls for a "negotiation" with Putin are disingenuous because he obviously isn't interetested in negotiating. Moreover, you can't have a negotiation in the middle of a war, and it also presupposes at least some kind of parity in status of the two sides.

You're not "negotiating" when you've got a knife to someone's throat, you're just making demands.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
but what do you expect corbyn to say, tea?

He is part of the British state apparatus (or was) at any rate. You're hardly going to get him to argue that russians and Ukrainians should turn their guns on their officers. For better or worse, his position within British politics has assigned him to be a kind of tinpot anti-war activist. Of course, being anti-war in this sense is a bourgeois democratic foil (capitalism is in seventh heaven when wars break out to destroy age old accumulated labour.) I highly doubt, however, that the streets of kyv are alight with anti-corbyn sentiment.

I'm not saying his statement is totally innocent — I think it's impirically and conceptually wrong. But this is just a case of finding a spectacle snowman to repeatedly knock down.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
like all these people who are denouncing JC never actually tell us what their desires are. If they want the UK govt to be giving more weapons to ukraine, then why are they wasting their time with someone who is not in government?
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Are you arguing for continuing the war?
I think this is an incorrect framing of the question, though. Ukrainians clearly consider fighting Russia preferable to being occupied by Russia. I don't feel like I'm in a position to say they're mistaken.

It's also wrong to assume they're still fighting "because" Western countries are sending them weapons. They're fighting for the survival of their country. Weapon supplies are enabling that, but they're not the actual cause.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
I think this is an incorrect framing of the question, though. Ukrainians clearly consider fighting Russia preferable to being occupied by Russia. I don't feel like I'm in a position to say they're mistaken.

It's also wrong to assume they're still fighting "because" Western countries are sending them weapons. They're fighting for the survival of their country. Weapon supplies are enabling that, but they're not the actual cause.

I think you missed the bit where I said it's a trick question. It's not a case of whether you or me are mistaken or correct. It's about humbly realising our relative marginality in all of this.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
It's also wrong to assume they're still fighting "because" Western countries are sending them weapons. They're fighting for the survival of their country. Weapon supplies are enabling that, but they're not the actual cause.

I never said this though? why are you attributing words to me which I never claimed?
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
but what do you expect corbyn to say, tea?

He is part of the British state apparatus (or was) at any rate. You're hardly going to get him to argue that russians and Ukrainians should turn their guns on their officers. For better or worse, his position within British politics has assigned him to be a kind of tinpot anti-war activist. Of course, being anti-war in this sense is a bourgeois democratic foil (capitalism is in seventh heaven when wars break out to destroy age old accumulated labour.) I highly doubt, however, that the streets of kyv are alight with anti-corbyn sentiment.

I'm not saying his statement is totally innocent — I think it's impirically and conceptually wrong. But this is just a case of finding a spectacle snowman to repeatedly knock down.
That's just the thing - he said pretty much exactly what I'd expect him to say.

He could have kept his trap shut and avoided doing his brand any more damage, but he's always prioritised appealing to the faithful.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
That's just the thing - he said pretty much exactly what I'd expect him to say.

He could have kept his trap shut and avoided doing his brand any more damage, but he's always prioritised appealing to the faithful.

yes but who cares?

If people claim to be on the left they should consider that the Ukrainian govt is already diminishing workers rights, I.E: it is legally permitted to temporarily suspend workers (without two weeks notice) resultantly conduct lay offs, the right to transfer workers to areas of employment not stipulated in labour contract without consent. Payment of wages may be suspended, the law permits for extension of working week to 60 hours, the starting and ending time of daily work may be determined by employer. Weekly rest period may be diminished from 48 to 24 hours. Union consent will not be necessary to suspend contracts. As a result, employers are exempt from union contributions.

It's amazing how the working class is just rendered fodder to be sacrificed when there's a war on, can't be worrying about pesky things like their rights can we now!
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
yes but who cares?

If people claim to be on the left they should consider that the Ukrainian govt is already diminishing workers rights, I.E: it is legally permitted to temporarily suspend workers (without two weeks notice) resultantly conduct lay offs, the right to transfer workers to areas of employment not stipulated in labour contract without consent. Payment of wages may be suspended, the law permits for extension of working week to 60 hours, the starting and ending time of daily work may be determined by employer. Weekly rest period may be diminished from 48 to 24 hours. Union consent will not be necessary to suspend contracts. As a result, employers are exempt from union contributions.

It's amazing how the working class is just rendered fodder to be sacrificed when there's a war on, can't be worrying about pesky things like their rights can we now!
I'm well aware Ukraine isn't an ideally progressive socialist utopia. But I think that's kind of irrelevant to the question of whether it has the right not to be invaded by fascists.
 
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