luka

Well-known member
Staff member
i cringe when one of my basic mates denounces some gesture or other as being 'ironic'. as if we were still in the year 1995.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
im about to try and work for the first time since lockdown but explain post-irony to me
 

droid

Beast of Burden
No one goes out onto the streets and into the jaws of the state violence on a whim

i have done plenty of times. seemed like a good laugh although into the jaws of state violence is overdoing it a bit isnt it
Yeah, Im talking about things like BLM. Protests that seriously challenge the state.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
Post-irony is just the reaction to awareness that sincerety is meaningless. A doing away of the distinction between sincerety and irony.
 
Of course, the very idea that protest, activism etc are performative, virtue signalling etc. is essentially a right wing tactic of delegitimisation, ties in with Rand's ideas about altruism, and ofc Petersons excerbale analysis. Whilst you can never know people's true motivations, actual activism and organisation takes commitment and focus. No one goes out onto the streets and into the jaws of the state violence on a whim, and encounters with the police tend to radicalise the less dedicated.

The distinction must also be made the personally performative and the symbolic performance of protest. The latter is well worn and effective strategy which sublimates the personal by necessity.
I think much right critique of protest and virtue signalling implies all whim, no true sacrifice. Which puts the left in a defensive position of statements like this, but you could say its in the nature, a necessity of major movements to sweep along those who haven’t mulled over the decision to act too much, they might learn as they do.The cynic in us will say ‘aye you didn’t give a fuck about this yesterday/ until stormzy endorsed / etc’ And so fuck? Good. isn’t this the point?

These protests seem to be successful in spreading the tools for education and tapping into that thrill of transgression and insurgence, the unrestrained joy in rolling a big expensive old statue into a river
 
that the aesthetic is just as good a measuring stick as any other, maybe better. i object to 'Read the room', 'Boomer', 'Racism is little dick energy' primarily on aesthetic grounds.
Same but I can't always justify it. I do feel aesthetic choices can indirectly point to sensibilities and shortcomings which run counter to the message they attempt to deliver, and can reveal things about people they wouldn't profess. i also feel my taste can get in the way, stop me from engaging with things that I maybe should (this is prob the case with fisher and hippies)
 
when shiels says we have progressed several levels beyond the irony/sincerity opposition he's talking about artistic strategy really. where the artist of today, and as you point out, that's all of us now, begins.

And that often our most earnest intentional moments are rehearsed or channelling scripts in ways we aren’t even aware of.

Self-awareness, despite the fact it can feel coherent moment to moment, or is something we think we arrive at, is constant flux, is a morphing bundle of inputs and outputs, constantly processing and misunderstanding fictions and facts about the world and yourself. We see this easily in others but its difficult with ourselves. Media or writing can allows us to step outside and see some the strings, and manipulate them. A kind of vertigo feeling you can get when writing, of the near impossibility of sincerity because there’s no core.
 

droid

Beast of Burden
I think much right critique of protest and virtue signalling implies all whim, no true sacrifice. Which puts the left in a defensive position of statements like this, but you could say its in the nature, a necessity of major movements to sweep along those who haven’t mulled over the decision to act too much, they might learn as they do.The cynic in us will say ‘aye you didn’t give a fuck about this yesterday/ until stormzy endorsed / etc’ And so fuck? Good. isn’t this the point?

These protests seem to be successful in spreading the tools for education and tapping into that thrill of transgression and insurgence, the unrestrained joy in rolling a big expensive old statue into a river
Once again, Im thinking of the poll tax, G20, G7 BLM, various other high tension events where protestors have to seriously consider the possibility of police violence, and those who dont learn a harsh lesson. Whimsy isnt much in evidence there, and policing and activism is going to look at lot more like that in the future.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
The right dismiss this stuff as indulgent virtue signalling until it's effective and then it's mob rule, thin end of the wedge, clash of civilisations stuff.

It's like that Gandhi quote - they ignore you, they laugh at you, the fight you - then you win. But with violence on both sides.
 
Once again, Im thinking of the poll tax, G20, G7 BLM, various other high tension events where protestors have to seriously consider the possibility of police violence, and those who dont learn a harsh lesson. Whimsy isnt much in evidence there, and policing and activism is going to look at lot more like that in the future.
Sorry I did take your comment out of context to make a point.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
i think the problem is that peoples aesthetic barometers are nowhere near sensitive enough.
I always find it really disappointing when I speak to someone who has good taste in one area, but it doesn't extend to any other. They read good books, but their favourite band's Arcade Fire.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
Something I sometimes struggle with re: sincerity, performance etc is whether the act matters more than the thought behind it. Case in point, one of my mates made a complete mess of himself on a night out as he has issues with both drinking and self harm and I ended up cleaning and bandaging his arm and helping him back to his house. The whole way I was mulling over why I was helping him and whether it mattered that I helped him; I remember feeling odd about it because I didn't have some burning desire to help him, I didn't feel sorry for him, I didn't really feel much of anything at all, I just did it because that's what I chose to do and not helping him never struck me as an option. I still can't decide how I feel about that. It's a positive that my first instinct was to help and that not helping was never really on the table, but the detachment bothers me for some reason. I'm not a paramedic or anything like that though, so maybe I have a skewed perception of how people who regularly help others think and they aren't all racing to the scene overcome with emotion.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
whenever i was in the hospital and my dad came to see me it always calmed me down and took my mind off things cos he wouldnt make a song and dance of stuff. he didnt even talk about the situation he'd just have a normal chat. when my mum would come it would be all fuss and 'emotion' which made things worse. generally emotions make it all about you and not the person you are supposed to be helping. emotions are vain and self serving and its good that you dont have any. that is my opinion.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
I do have emotions. They just seem to disappear in a situation like that. I'm at my most emotional when I'm on my own.
 
Yeah I get that too. I think you’re referring to a kind of practiced empathy that gets conflated with sincerity. You are being sincere with your mate there. Most people feel that detachment along with a whole mix of other things, but choose which parts to show. Nobody wants to be pitied do they? Empathy eyebrows and nods. Awwww. In a situation like that id like it if a mate can do the kind thing in an unforced way, and honour that it’s boring, honour that they find me annoying, still do it without congratulating themselves too much.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
A kind of vertigo feeling you can get when writing, of the near impossibility of sincerity because there’s no core.
I still believe that there is a core. I agree that sometimes, it feels like what you're doing is basically constructing your beliefs while articulating them. But that is just because you haven't articulated them before in language. There is some wobbling around, some trial and error, where you put something down and then read it back and it doesn't quite resonate the right way. But what is this thing that it is supposed to resonate with if not a core? Some essential notion of you, something innate like a soul.
 
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