Iran again

[DannyL]

Can you see a difference between Clinton (Hilary) and Trump?

 

[IdleRich]

Apparently Mike Pompeo spoke to Dominic Raab on Friday but it's unknown if this included a specific warning about the attack.

Probably he told him but Raab didn't know where Iran was and didn't care about some guy he'd never heard of being killed so he forgot about it straight away.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Probably he told him but Raab didn't know where Iran was and didn't care about some guy he'd never heard of being killed so he forgot about it straight away.

Sounds about right.

I bet if you gave him an unlabelled map of the Middle East, he'd be unable to say which country is Iran and which is Iraq. If, indeed, he's even aware they're two separate countries.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

tough not to take very real delight in the death of such a thoroughly evil man

sure. like I said, I shed no tears for him.

I would question how solely responsible any one man could be for all of that

not to excuse Soleimani in any way, but to continue querying how much killing any one person fundamentally changes things

the world is full of grotesque monsters who escape punishment because it's not expedient

The death of one doesn't make me feel any better

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

And anyone who views him as a martyr will obviously think he was on the side of righteousness regardless

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Trump vows to hit 52 Iranian targets

there it is

the strategically gratuitous but emotionally resonant selection of specifically 52 targets being a perfect Trumpian touch

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

as long as the usa is the most powerful country in the world no black or brown person will ever be safe.

Will a Chinese hegemony be better? (no)

Would any globally dominant superpower be better? (very likely not)

That's not to defend the U.S., but to say that all major empires thru all of history have always been like this. There is no such thing as a benign superpower. The U.S. is the current iteration of an age-old problem.

And to say there's no difference between O + Trump/Bush is ridiculous. I'm no big Obama fan, but this would not have happened, in this way, on his watch. He negotiated a deal that Trump pulled out of. He refused - to much criticism - to go to war over the chemical warfare red line, in order to get that deal completed.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

idk if Obama's way was better, or more productive, but certainly it was different in some respect

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I wonder who came up with it. I can't imagine him being familiar with the history.

That's what aides are for

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I gotta admit, it's an amazing detail. So stupid, so Trump.

Obviously he didn't inform or consult the military in any way.

 

[entertainment]

did you also celebrate other extrajudicial American killings outside of a declared state of war?

going on a date this thursday, think I'll pop this one at her after the first beer

 

[entertainment]

No honestly, I don't celebrate this, and I agree with all of what you said about what were Trump's motivations for the attack. But I don't believe that the consequences are all negative, like you do. I think that's disregarding the personality cult and goodwill of Soleimani in Iran. I don't see a replacement popping in and enjoying the strategic freedom that he did. Especially with Iran's economy being this shit at the moment.

 

[baboon2004]

Oh good, Britain now officially on the 'same page' as US over this. Could they just not drag their feet a bit longer for once...America says Britain's response 'isn't helpful enough', and sure as fuck, the very next day it is helpful.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Oh good, Britain now officially on the 'same page' as US over this. Could they just not drag their feet a bit longer for once...America says Britain's response 'isn't helpful enough', and sure as fuck, the very next day it is helpful.

I can see us dancing ever more energetically to America's tune (meaning Trump's tune, of course) after we needlessly and stupidly distance ourselves from our European allies and trading partners.

How utterly depressing.

 

[DannyL]

Oh good, Britain now officially on the 'same page' as US over this. Could they just not drag their feet a bit longer for once...America says Britain's response 'isn't helpful enough', and sure as fuck, the very next day it is helpful.

Nazanin Zagari-Ratcliffe comes to mind whenever I think of the Tories and Iran. I guess she and her family will be another casualty of this.

 

[Leo]

didn't expect to see this in the nytimes...

Trump Kills Iran’s Most Overrated Warrior

One day they may name a street after President Trump in Tehran. Why? Because Trump just ordered the assassination of possibly the dumbest man in Iran and the most overrated strategist in the Middle East: Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani.

 

[Leo]

That reads exactly like something I'd expect to see from The NYT. I'm sure it was them who said he was finally starting to sound presidential when he threatened someone or something a while back. They fall in line once the war drums sound.

I think you're mistaken. Just look at the rest of the opinion pieces:
American Foreign Policy Is Broken. Suleimani’s Killing Proves It.
Congress, Stop President Trump’s Rush to War With Iran
The Dire Consequences of Trump’s Suleimani Decision
Qassim Suleimani’s Killing Will Unleash Chaos

 

[droid]

Offensives against ISIS cancelled.

Iraq votes to expel US troops.

Iran begins enriching uranium.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the consequences are all negative, like you do

I don't believe the consequences are all negative. nothing is ever 100% negative, or positive.

I think the relatively small gain of killing this one guy is massively - I cannot overstate how massively - offset by the costs incurred

as droid has just pointed out, Iraq has voted to expel U.S. troops and Iran has abandoned the nuclear deal. the remnants of ISIS will (again) be left to their own devices.

I have been following Iran somewhat the last 10 years - since the Green Revolution - but I'm not definitely not expert enough to say if Soleimani's importance was overrated or not

my instinct - tho I loathe to find myself sharing an opinion with Tom Friedman - is that he was hugely overrated, given that his policies seem like huge expenditure for relatively little gain, and to have directly contributed to Iran domestically being a fucking shambles (ironically he was, like his American enemies, an architect of imperial overreach)

but even if he was some mastermind, no, it was not remotely worth it

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

They fall in line once the war drums sound

they're pretty touchy in an archaic way about that both sides "objectivity" that most people no longer even pretend to care about

hence they always have to have at least one conservative on the editorial staff, and they publish jingoistic or whatever nonsense periodically