Cultural Cowardice

[CrowleyHead]

Inevitably we are all fighting the disease of Britishness wherever we hail from on this forum.

 

[linebaugh]

I disagree. A major problem is that rap's canon was written by New York and Los Angeles because those are the two major media access points in America, meanwhile America at large is... well insanely big.

This is the antithesis of Luka's theorems where constantly all of England is actually defined by London, which is actually defined by East London, which is further minimized focused into (effervescent gesture). America is too vast and things happen all the time where nobody notices. Inventions, innovations, and nobody cares. Much like the techno debates elsewhere on this forum, think of how much happened in these small pocket cities of America and how much was constantly being bounced back and forth along through the nation. Detroit's techno neighboring Chicago house, battling NYC's hip-hop, Miami's Bass (not to mention Atlanta's Bass) and LA's Electro/boogie. That happens on a much smaller and more easily disregarded scale in the UK because it's a significantly smaller population and smaller span of land which means the immediacy is so much harder, even with modern technology. Nothing can actually duplicate the ease of being in a physical space. So much of this country lacks the claustrophobia but is too schizophrenic for any display of Subjective Representation. Too many names, too many cities, too many faces, too many eyes.

Hip-Hop went a far way without the sampling all over the country and then eventually sampling went the way of the dodo. It's now a vanity flourish.

It's why Jungle is a dead end genre. Not because it can't innovate further upon itself (it can) but it NEEDS the sampled drum. Whenever these producers try to sculpt these fake tin robot drum sounds to avoid chopping 'the same old same old breaks' they just reveal skeleton tunes. Woebot was right to argue that Hip-Hop is the real lifeblood of jungle, but he didn't know what he was doing because he falls for the British novelty of mistaking Public Enemy as an exemplary of rap instead of being an anomaly.

I feel like now more than ever hip hop is aware of its dissipate sources. Houston, Detroit, Bay area, Atlanta, Florida, Memphis. UK too. These are sounds pushing the genre right now and acknowledged as such. And sampling has waned significantly so I don't see the connection there- no arbitrary, vain NEED for hip hop to have sampling in order to qualify as 'hip hop'. I think were talking about about different things- I can see what your saying applying to the underground.

But my original point was that sampling and the way loops were employed changed the rhythmic language of hip hop. Less like dance music and more like funk music. Even when other pockets of the genre strayed from sampling, the rhythmic language remained. I don't know if other cities introduced sampling at the same time as NYC, I just was just operating on the assumption that Eric B and Rakim were the first to introduce the modern style to a mass audience.

 

[linebaugh]

Wait I think I miss read your point on sampling. What are trying to say with the jungle comparison? That hip hop has unceremoniously tossed sampling to the side and now its just a novelty addition? and hip hop could do for a 80s to 90s style revolution?

 

[luka]

The rhythmic language of todays hip hop isnt anything like 80's production. 80's production was an off shoot of dance music. It took you on a forward march past a chronological sequence of samples and sounds, like an old mill carnival ride that shuttles you down a tunnel, each turn an animatronic side show springs at you from the walls. Eric B and Rakim are considered the first modern rap artists because they heightened the swing feeling in the rhythm with accents on the off beat and third when the snare hits- the stuff that locks you into that tight, characteristically hip hop head nod. They also shortened the sample lengths, and production looked less like a stacking of distinct sounds but an intricate arrangement of concise loops that interlock and reinterpret the others to form one unified master loop. The chronology of 80's production gives way to a new feeling of timelessness and A parts and B parts are replaced by a revealing and concealing of the master loop. This is essentially where were at today- the best trap beats have that same hypnotic, clockwork feel of the best boom bap beats.

I think the closest modern comparisons to 80's hip hop was the early/mid 2000's, the Timberland and Pharrell and early Kanye production with bang-on-a-cafeteria-lunch-table rhythms and a bend for wacky sounds- bed springs, water drops, mouth sounds and etc.

I really like this post but as Crowley says I think it is a better description of coldcut than of actual 80s rap which I don't think I recognise from the description. But I'd like an expanded explanation with examples and time stamps and so on. A real in depth PowerPoint presentation to illuminate the thesis

 

[mvuent]

for the record im thinking about this side of the 80s:




not saying this stuff could be MISTAKEN for new hip hop, or even that current producers are directly influenced by it.

but imo it feels closer to current rhythmic aesthetics than stuff like this:



maybe it's only a matter of drum machines vs breaks and samples. BUT that doesn't account for how so many producers in the UK did music with breaks that recognizably comes after electro (although as crowley said it became a dead end), whereas in nyc music it's as if that sound had been completely forgotten by the mid 90s.

 

[mvuent]

it's almost as if everyone in the area was like "ok, i don't like where this shits headed, let's get back to soul and disco and start this whole genre over from there." in fact dj premier said that verbatim, it's a historical fact.

 

[mvuent]

Think post 80's hip hop gets big credit for finding a way to remove the kitsch from plunderphonic music too. no small feat.

my favorite uses of sampling in hip hop are from the 80s. a lot of times the source material is really corny but used and manipulated in very jarring, imaginative ways. ironically probably closer to what john oswald had in mind than the more accessible, well known efforts later on.

 

[luka]

One of the many gross things about big beat is it resserects the kitsch aspect of sampling and pairs it with a big matey stage wink

 

[mvuent]

from what i gather turntablism leans very heavily into that after its initial moment. using sampling for shit like: "(50s PSA voice) but the most dangerous animal in the jungle is--(scratching)--(loud voiceover) DJ MAD SKILLZ!!!" which is why i've never listened to it.

 

[mvuent]

oh wait that name is used by an actual guy. my apologies mr. skillz

 

[luka]

Crowley had talked before about how he has an frenzied Oedipal urge to tear down the cultural touchstones and dogmas of his father, eg sampling and a NYcentric viewpoint.

 

[CrowleyHead]

It's less the touchstones/dogmas of my father and a recognition of the limitation of a pre-access world that has led to false narrative. My dad and me agree more often than we don't, and in some ways he's more irreverent than I. He loved Lil Pump and xxxtentacion way before I did. Said it reminded him of 88.

 

[CrowleyHead]

Now if we referred to NYC as my father, I would say yes. But that is because I recognize that NYC culturally is enforced by caricature and pandering and it becomes this sort of histrionic self-imposed cartoon of living up to stupid expectations. Exaggerated Brooklyn Accents, Faux Swagger, Dated Masculinity. It's bad folks.

 

[linebaugh]

I really like this post but as Crowley says I think it is a better description of coldcut than of actual 80s rap which I don't think I recognise from the description. But I'd like an expanded explanation with examples and time stamps and so on. A real in depth PowerPoint presentation to illuminate the thesis

Maybe Im ignorant but I dont think coldcut is all that different from 80's style rap production.
This I take to be your pretty typical 80's rap song. Weve got equal emphasis on each beat, little swing, and the sounds are stacked chronologically atop the drum machine- a sequence of stabbing sounds, drum fills and record scratches. Has a forward march feel.

Heres what might be the quintessential boom bap beat. The stairway to heaven of freestyle circles. It begins around the 30 second mark.
You can feel the accents and swing. It makes the Head Nod. You got the kick drum couplet that snaps your head down on the first beat, and a hi hat on the off beat before the third that brings your head up and primes for the incoming snare, making it hit all the harder. The loops are short and feel like they're just floating there. When we do hear new sounds, they're of the same simple, looping style. The beat 'changes' by adding and dropping the piano loop, the drum loop, and the siren loop, little else.

I typed 'trap' into youtube and this is an early result
Completely different sound pallet, but similar rhythmic tricks. We've got an open high hat on the off beat before your snare on the third, two off beat snare/claps following that first hit and a detuned hi-hat beneath the primary that hits on off beats as well. Its these syncopated sounds that give both boom bap and trap music the Head Nod- where the head snapping up is as essential, if not more, than the head snapping down. The way trap beats use melody is similar as well, the circular arpeggios and and droning pads create the same hypnotic feel that tight boom bap loops bring, the melody doesn't progress through a serious of chords but rather hangs out generally in the melodic center, and likewise the beat remains largely the same throughout the entire song.

When I say early 2000's production feels closer to the 80's I think of this (a Timbaland Beat)
80's hip hop sounds radically different from most modern stuff, so the comparison isn't as immediate, but there are similarities. The beat feels more traditionally dancey and theres actual forward progression. Sounds come in not to interlock in with the loop but add melodic content atop and distinguish A parts from B parts- check the eerie lead at the 1:07 mark and that bass synth at the two minute mark. Both reinterpret the melodic content and mood of the beat. Compare that to this absolutely schizophrenic Grandmaster Flash song (first changes at the :25, :43 and 1:18 marks, but the whole song is worth a listen):

Like the Missy Eliot song, the added sounds don't lock in to the primary loop but stack on top and change the feel. Gives the song a feeling of progression where the Mobb Deep and Future song have a feeling of timelessness.

 

[linebaugh]

Crowley had talked before about how he has an frenzied Oedipal urge to tear down the cultural touchstones and dogmas of his father, eg sampling and a NYcentric viewpoint.

Think were in the midst of another swing of the pendulum, maybe because of that Oedipal urge, a reaction against a decade of the snappy trap beats. Drake, Danny Brown, Vince Staples, Rico Nasty, Brock Hampton- all have experimented with dance sensibilities in line with the early aughts/80's pairing (if we are to take it that that isn't a shit comparison). Even soundcloud guys, ostensibly the vanguard for modern trap production, have gotten in the mix. Ski Mask the Slump Gods most popular song is over a missy eliot beat:

 

[linebaugh]

my favorite uses of sampling in hip hop are from the 80s. a lot of times the source material is really corny but used and manipulated in very jarring, imaginative ways. ironically probably closer to what john oswald had in mind than the more accessible, well known efforts later on.

I really like 80's sampling too, but I wouldn't call most 80's production plunderphonics. Alot of the first modern hip hop beats were entirely sample based

 

[mvuent]

I really like 80's sampling too, but I wouldn't call most 80's production plunderphonics. Alot of the first modern hip hop beats were entirely sample based

guess i'm not that interested in drawing a hard line between plunderphonics and other sample usage personally. what i meant is more that there's sample usage from the 80s close in spirit to what john oswald (who did coin the term, after all) was doing and was interested in at the time. playing with the familiarity of the sonic materials.

whereas a lot of later stuff that's technically plunderphonics is quite frankly kind of boring in that respect.

 

[linebaugh]

It was my understanding that plunderphonics is entirely sample based music, is all. I get what your saying with the John Oswald comparison though, both him and 80's hip hop sampling that completely whacked out and jittery feel, where boom bap production tries to tame the sample.

 

[version]

Is Paul's Boutique plunderphonics?

 

[linebaugh]

From the pluderphonics wiki:
'The process of sampling other sources is found in various genres (notably hip-hop and especially turntablism), but in plunderphonic works the sampled material is often the only sound used.'