Mass shootings

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
But potentially to the point of that other argument, perhaps in less hyper-industrialized and domesticated eras, people like that could just go out and join some band of marauders or pirates or whatever, rather than have to sublimate that instinct into something more amendable to civilized society, EG sports.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I think the argument that @version referenced has a kernel of truth in it
I'm sorry, but it doesn't

the very general point that America has always been a society full of violence, and that mass shootings are just one manifestation of that - yes

a slightly less general point that people who want to do violence will find such outlets for violence as exist - sure, OK

the idea that people like this most recent school shooter, let alone fucking white supremacists, would have joined "violent organizations like the Weathermen [sic]" - absolutely not. that is a very wrong and stupid point that is worth refuting.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
I'm sorry, but it doesn't

the very general point that America has always been a society full of violence, and that mass shootings are just one manifestation of that - yes

a slightly less general point that people who want to do violence will find such outlets for violence as exist - sure, OK

the idea that people like this most recent school shooter, let alone fucking white supremacists, would have joined "violent organizations like the Weathermen [sic]" - absolutely not. that is a very wrong and stupid point that is worth refuting.
Yeah I don't know anything about the weather underground, so I can't speak to that. But I do have a suspicion that lone wolf violent extremism correlates with society becoming more and more industrialized and domesticated. Not sure how you'd quantify either, so I can't pretend to have any real analytic opinion here, just a suspicion.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
the idea that people like this most recent school shooter, let alone fucking white supremacists, would have joined "violent organizations like the Weathermen [sic]" - absolutely not. that is a very wrong and stupid point that is worth refuting.
Nonetheless, it's not unknown for people involved in far-left politics to get into fascism, or vice-versa, is it? Or white supremacists who become jihadis, or whatever.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Nonetheless, it's not unknown for people involved in far-left politics to get into fascism, or vice-versa, is it? Or white supremacists who become jihadis, or whatever.
yes, sometimes people switch stripes. and sometimes those kinds of people are, consciously or not, just looking for a cause, any cause, rather than being truly devoted to particular ideology.

but America doesn't have a problem with "people involved in far-left politics" getting into fascism (you're thinking about the political mess that was inter-war Europe). it has a problem with actual fascists repeatedly murdering large groups of people.

I'm sorry yall I don't want to be mean but these arguments are, no offense, fucking obtuse.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
yes, sometimes people switch stripes. and sometimes those kinds of people are, consciously or not, just looking for a cause, any cause, rather than being truly devoted to particular ideology.

but America doesn't have a problem with "people involved in far-left politics" getting into fascism (you're thinking about the political mess that was inter-war Europe). it has a problem with actual fascists repeatedly murdering large groups of people.

I'm sorry yall I don't want to be mean but these arguments are, no offense, fucking obtuse.
No worries, you live there and are obviously more clued up about this sort of thing than I am.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
yeah I'm sorry man idk how to be clearer. I said it above, but I'll say it again.

any organization that does violence will attract some people who are just there to do violence

that includes leftists, anarchists, etc (some of whom are armed, make no mistake)

but they're generally not the ones walking into grocery stores or churches and slaughtering people

whereas white supremacists etc have being doing just that for decades
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
yes, sometimes people switch stripes. and sometimes those kinds of people are, consciously or not, just looking for a cause, any cause, rather than being truly devoted to particular ideology.

but America doesn't have a problem with "people involved in far-left politics" getting into fascism (you're thinking about the political mess that was inter-war Europe). it has a problem with actual fascists repeatedly murdering large groups of people.

I'm sorry yall I don't want to be mean but these arguments are, no offense, fucking obtuse.
Yeah I'm under the impression that in the US the far-left is relatively benign, in terms of violence, compared to the far-right. It just doesn't feel like we're quite talking about the same thing. IE it doesn't feel like I'm really arguing against your points per se, just saying that violent, self-destructive angst increases as society becomes more domesticated, and its tough to reconcile this with some of the more toxic standards for how men here are expected to act.

But I could be totally wrong. For all know, there have been lone wolf mass violence as long as firearms have been accessible.
 

version

Well-known member
The argument wasn't that right wingers would join The Weather Underground. They're just an example of a group that were willing to use violence. You could swap that example for the Minutemen or whoever if you're wanting to talk about which specific groups a right winger would potentially join.

The point being made was that as America becomes increasingly atomised, so too the violence.
 
Last edited:

version

Well-known member
I should have worded the initial post a bit better tbh. I mangled their argument and it does read the way Padraig's saying.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The point being made was that as America becomes increasingly atomised, so to the violence.
See, that's a different argument. still not a great argument, but less bad.

America always been a violent a society with many outlets for people who wish to do violence, and the argument, as far as it goes - increasing social atomization probably leads to increasingly atomized manifestations of that violence - is sound

its problem is failing to distinguish between ideological and non-ideological violence. admittedly there is a gray area that some attacks or perpetrators fall into, but racist terrorism is always very clearly delineated - it's terrorism, that is its entire point.

the ur-event of modern mass shootings is, obviously, Columbine. there are mass shootings that predate it, but I think you can very clearly say there is a Before and After, especially in terms of the media/national consciousness gestalt. every post-Columbine school shooting especially is, to some greater or less degree, a copycat. the essential difference from previous violence is mass communications specifically, ofc, the Internet.

the history of American racist terrorism predates Columbine in a different way. assuming you want to limit it to illegal terrorism (i.e. post-Civil War) it goes back 150+ years. it has waxed and waned but it has always been present in American society. a Dylann Roof or Payton Gendron may borrow from and be acting in the lineage of modern mass shooters from Klebold/Harris on, but they are also acting in a different, much older and even darker lineage of American racial violence that yesterday's Uvalde shooter simply was not. that's not to say the outcome is less bad, but handwaving it as comparable instances of the influence of social atomization, no, can't let that pass unchallenged.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Islamist terrorism is obviously a newer American historical lineage, and ideologically much closer to something like the IRA's bombing campaign in England, even as the forms it takes are influenced by post-Columbine mass violence and, ironically, the Neonazi model of lone wolf terrorism, as well as Islamist tactics in other countries and the more general recent history of global terrorism
 

version

Well-known member
Apparently Schrader initially intended for Travis Bickle to target black people exclusively in Taxi Driver but was talked out of it as the studio felt it was too irresponsible a film to make.

He recently claimed Hinckley actually wrote to him before shooting Reagan too and when he heard the news his first thought was it was " ... one of those Taxi Driver kids... ".
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I don't remember if I mentioned before that a distant acquaintance of acquaintances - like I never met him, but I knew some kids whose older siblings bought weed from him - carried out a racist killing spree in and around Chicago when I was a kid. Shot several orthodox Jews, killed a black man (he coached a local college basketball team; there's still an annual 5K run in his name) in front of his children, drove to Indiana and killed a Korean grad student on his way to church, then suicided in a parking lot after a police chase.
 

version

Well-known member
Jesus. Was there any suggestion he would do something like that or did it catch the people who knew him unawares?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
idk. like I said I never met him and even people who did, he'd gone off to college a couple years earlier.

he was definitely openly, virulently racist, but idk if he was like that in high school - I doubt to the same degree, but who knows - or that was a later thing.

his motivation was supposedly that the leader of the World Church of the Creator (who's currently doing 40 years for trying to have a federal judge murdered) was denied admission to the Illinois Bar for being openly racist, which he absolutely was and is.
 
Top