luka

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Craner is this thread giving you deja vu?!!


DannyL DannyL is offline
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I mean if you do want to establish the argument that states don't give a fucking shit about non white people in the Middle East, you can have this from an interventionist point of view - there's a credible argument that Obama threw the Syrian people under the bus 'cos of the nuclear deal with Iran. Now shredded of course.
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Today, 03:20 PM #239 droid droid is invisible
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I don't think you need to establish the argument, history has done it already, in fact its fairly easy to establish that Western states dont give a fuck about anything except their own interests and the interests of capital.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
You could say that I have a naive belief in the judgement of the state to do the right thing, and maybe I'd agree with you.

To me, the way round this is actually listen to people in those countries and support democratic movements when they seem to be springing up. What is the record of the anti-war Left in giving a voice to these people? Actually listening to those being bombed, those under assault? Newflash, surprising exactly no one - it's not good.

If they fall on the wrong side of the ideological divide, they're not heard. Their voices are shut down and they're systematically ignored.
I think that there is a gap between conceding a monopoly of violence to the state and giving carte blanche to STWC. And to give him his due, Burgon has opened up the conversation about that gap.

I think that most people do not think about this much, me included. (I don't actually talk much about international politics because I don't know enough about it which is one of many reasons why I value our friendship and having Droid about the place).

Having this conversation - giving people a stake in what happens - is the beginning of a very very long process to transform how international conflicts take place.

Absolutely people should listen to the democractic movements that spring up. That's part of the left that I am part of - as I hope you know. We have to compete with another left that uses "anti-imperialism" as a cloak for anti-American sentiment and for propping up various foul foreign states. (Including Russia which is right now fitting up and torturing a load of my anti-fascist comrades.)

But I honestly believe that most people would and do quite rightly reject this left. And that, on balance, most people's rejection of war except in very specific circumstances like genocide, will be better in the long run.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
BOGEYMAN Jeremy Corbyn picks nose and wipes it on his beard in the Commons

JEREMY Corbyn today picked his nose and wiped it on his beard while on the front bench of the Commons.

The failed Labour leader finally picked a winner as he listened to his colleague Luke Pollard during a debate on the floods crisis.

He then pulled his finger out and smeared it across his beard.

Mr Corbyn is currently digging in deep as he remains in his role until a replacement is selected.

The far-left leader’s successor will finally be announced on April 4.

A Tory source said: "After leading Labour to their worse defeat for 85 years, Corbyn nose he's now the bogeyman of Labour."

A Labour source added: "Jeremy clearly doesn't care any more. He nose his time is up."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10934...ose-and-wipes-it-on-his-beard-in-the-commons/
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I don't think you need to establish the argument, history has done it already, in fact its fairly easy to establish that Western states dont give a fuck about anything except their own interests and the interests of capital.
Although ironically the don't seem to do that very well either.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
You can point to NATO missions in Siera Leone and Kosovo as examples of intervention that prevented much worse violence from happening. Although I guess they're inevitably going to be overshadowed by the Iraq invasion and its aftermath.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
But I honestly believe that most people would and do quite rightly reject this left.
I wish I believed this. Seeing the way conspiracy has taken root in the Left though re. Syria, I find it hard to accept. I don't think people really get the industrial scale of the opinion shaping operation that's taken place.

Kate Starbird is one of the most detailed researchers looking at this area - this is a solid paper about The White Helmets. Season 1 of the Bellingcat podcast is a more entertaining way to get a sense of the scale and relentlessness of the problem (IIRC - would have to go back and double check).

It doesn't need saying but our imaginary new Labour conversation would be a massive target for these kind of influence operations.
I'll come back to some of your other points tomorrow - determined not to spend all night on the 'net.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
The BBC aired a show called Failed by the NHS tonight. Obviously there are issues with the health service, but can't help feeling someone was pushing an agenda with a title like that - #failedbythenhs is trending on twitter atm.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
And the Blair-era revised Clause IV just managed to retain the word:

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect.
 
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