john eden

male pale and stale
what do you think about 'free movement' John Eden?
Thank you for asking luka.

I think it's complicated and is one of those slippery words like "flexibilty" that sounds great but you have to look at who gets what out of it.

We live in a world where Kylie Jenner can go wherever she likes, whenever she likes and have pretty much all of the material comforts she can dream of. Even in a global pandemic she can jet off to a remote island for some much needed downtime.

I imagine that is a very different existence from the Polish lads you see standing outside Wickes on Seven Sisters Road first thing in the morning trying to pick up labouring work. Their "freedom" to leave their families and communities to come here for more remunerative work is predicated on economic inequality - across countries and across classes.

So these two types of movement are very different:

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”​


― Anatole France​

And of course there isn't actually freedom of movement for everyone - even on those terms, which is why some (usually browner) people risk their lives crossing the channel, or die in the back of an articulated lorry.

None of this is especially new, mind. You only have to look at the way that people from the commonwealth were encouraged to come here to help with the post war reconstruction, and how they were treated when they did. Or the Irish lads who built half of London.

"Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will: to dwell where he will: to move as he will on the face of the earth." but for that to happen we need to live in a different world.
 

luka

Well-known member
do you share the Mark Fisher position that immigration is used as a tool by the illuminati to undermine the power and solidarity of the working class? or do you take the neoliberal barty line that all immigration is good for everyone?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Apparently they turned off loads of cameras on the motorways to nip in the bud the process that ends up with inconvenient photographs of thousand mile long traffic jams turning up all over the internet.
People are circumventing this by sharing images from Google Earth.

Brexit: the fuck-up so massive you can see it from space.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
do you share the Mark Fisher position that immigration is used as a tool by the illuminati to undermine the power and solidarity of the working class? or do you take the neoliberal barty line that all immigration is good for everyone?
I think that centre-ing the conversation on immigration is a problem.

The neoliberal project, as whole, is all about promoting the idea of everyone being an individual consumer and entrepreneur. So if we're going to talk about that we need to talk about all of it - privatisation, the lunacy of "trickle down", the way we all to a lesser or greater extent internalise that Molly Mae ideology of everyone having the same 24 hours a day...

It's not the case that we would have more of a socialistic society if we got rid of "free movement". But yes it can be used as a tool to reduce solidarity and all that, because everything can really.

On the other hand it can also be a way to foster greater understanding and internationalism.

Here is a protest outside Hackney Town Hall yesterday:

Those riders are from all kinds of different backgrounds and here we go, it's good on loads of different levels.

Some people have escaped from restrictive situations and come to London particularly for a better life (from within the UK and all over the world). But some have been overtly or covertly forced into it.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
There is a problem here in that climate change is going to put real pressure on migration to an extent that neoliberals will not like.

So we will see less "free movement" and more fortified borders in the next few decades.
 

wild greens

Well-known member
Apparently they turned off loads of cameras on the motorways to nip in the bud the process that ends up with inconvenient photographs of thousand mile long traffic jams turning up all over the internet.

Its nowhere near as bad as it was. When it all kicked off at first we were bearing the brunt of it on the a20 some days and i'm fifty miles from dover at least. I was on it just this morning in fact though only as far as sevenoaks
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I think that centre-ing the conversation on immigration is a problem.

The neoliberal project, as whole, is all about promoting the idea of everyone being an individual consumer and entrepreneur. So if we're going to talk about that we need to talk about all of it - privatisation, the lunacy of "trickle down", the way we all to a lesser or greater extent internalise that Molly Mae ideology of everyone having the same 24 hours a day...

It's not the case that we would have more of a socialistic society if we got rid of "free movement". But yes it can be used as a tool to reduce solidarity and all that, because everything can really.

On the other hand it can also be a way to foster greater understanding and internationalism.

Here is a protest outside Hackney Town Hall yesterday:

Those riders are from all kinds of different backgrounds and here we go, it's good on loads of different levels.

Some people have escaped from restrictive situations and come to London particularly for a better life (from within the UK and all over the world). But some have been overtly or covertly forced into it.
But look. Look what happens when people try to come together.

 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Another Brexit bonus...

Bank of England says UK households must brace themselves for the biggest annual fall in their standard of living since comparable records began three decades ago, as it: - Raises interest rates to 0.5% - Says inflation will surpass 7% - Slashes GDP forecast
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Big Eden laying The Smack Down poor old Rich can't get away with nothing
Eh? That chart doesn't say anything about reduced standards of living.
I doubt that any others are gonna be having the worst fall in that ever measured though.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Eh? That chart doesn't say anything about reduced standards of living.
I doubt that any others are gonna be having the worst fall in that ever measured though.
Well for those of us who are not independently wealthy, there is a link between inflation (and the causes of inflation) and our standards of living - especially if your wages fall behind inflation, which is the case for virtually everyone I know.

I’m not saying Brexit has made this wider problem better, but it’s nonsense to say that fuel bills are increasing just because of Brexit (for example).
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Not just because of Brexit, but it's unlikely to be unconnected.

And if the rest of Europe is also experiencing a leap in inflation, that too may not be unconnected to Brexit. The UK was after all the second biggest economy in the EU, and the effects of Brexit on the rest of the bloc, although less severe than they've been here, are not going to be negligible.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I can never figure Oakeshott out... even here where it looks as though she has roughly done something like the right thing, albeit belatedly, her statement still says that although she now acknowledges was exactly what our enemies wanted to happen to Britain and they paid for traitors to make it happen, she still thinks that it's a good idea. Isn't she also the one who said that Cameron fucked a pig?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
You know those films where the leadership of a country - or sometimes even humanity itself - is infiltrated by the enemy. The good guy is constantly being victimised but finally at the end he provides incontrovertible proof that the country has been led astray by some kind of manchurian candidate (possibly from outer space) and at that point, the staunch second in command who has been a constant thorn in the good guy's side realises that he has been tricked and shows that he is, at bottom, a decent guy by sacrificing himself.. or something like that, it's a tried and tested formula. My point is, it's another storyline we now know simply wouldn't happen in real life. If Johnson took off his head to reveal a green and purple face and said "I'm an alien from the planet Zarg and I've been working against the UK to remove it from the EU" then no brexiters would go "Oh no I've been tricked" they would just say "At least Zarg isn't in the EU, carry on mate".
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
You know those films where the leadership of a country - or sometimes even humanity itself - is infiltrated by the enemy. The good guy is constantly being victimised but finally at the end he provides incontrovertible proof that the country has been led astray by some kind of manchurian candidate (possibly from outer space) and at that point, the staunch second in command who has been a constant thorn in the good guy's side realises that he has been tricked and shows that he is, at bottom, a decent guy by sacrificing himself.. or something like that, it's a tried and tested formula. My point is, it's another storyline we now know simply wouldn't happen in real life. If Johnson took off his head to reveal a green and purple face and said "I'm an alien from the planet Zarg and I've been working against the UK to remove it from the EU" then no brexiters would go "Oh no I've been tricked" they would just say "At least Zarg isn't in the EU, carry on mate".
Yes - and equivalently, these T-shirts:
fnh8f5lmpgjv4t5tmcjs.jpg
As much as to say: Sure, the Republican party has been captured wholesale by the Russian state and as such is now working directly counter to American interests on the world stage, but - get this, right - "Let's go, Brandon!" Tee hee!
 
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