The Coming Authoritarianism.

version

Well-known member
Western notions of freedom of movement compared to plenty of varied hellscapes around the world are weighted in one direction

It’s like making peace with the notion that the next 2/3 years will be disruptive, that it can be waited out (hope is in the waiting not anticipating), while remaining vigilant

That’s the best way I can cut through the fog and emotion. Can I wait to go to x? Of course I can. Will vaccine passports feed negative feedback? Of course. As much as I’m with you erring on caution to swallow the permanent line is premature
True, but any loss of freedom remains a loss of freedom. It doesn't matter whether you're aware that people elsewhere have it worse as a change in material circumstances will still register.

I haven't swallowed the permanent line. I'm always careful to use terms like "if" and "may" and acknowledge that you can't entirely trust any source. I'm just exploring the possibility that the people concerned are correct.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Ignore Piers Corbyn. That's like asking what you're supposed to do if you don't like the idea of Brexit but also think David Cameron's a fucking prick. There are pricks on every side of every issue.
I get what you're saying, but that case is far more clear-cut, as loads of non-pricks were also saying Brexit was a terrible idea, and the density of pricks was obviously much greater on the pro-Brexit side.

My point is that the loudest people arguing against vaccine passports are also against vaccines per se, and against masks, and against any anti-disease policy whatsoever. They're fundamentalist nutters cast adrift from reality and they have a huge overlap with the far right, to the point of some of them being literal Nazis (Icke, the QAnon lot, etc.).
 
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version

Well-known member
This is where expanded testing kits are a possible solution. A mate of a mate’s situation is self employed and has access to twice weekly testing, everyone is working outdoors too so it’s overkill but he was asked to by employees sharing vehicles.
Apparently France are going to be charging for non-prescribed testing from October. It's going to be rough if people are expected to start paying for various things in order to have access to public life. I mean we've already got people relying on food banks and struggling to pay rent as it is.
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
True, but any loss of freedom remains a loss of freedom. It doesn't matter whether you're aware that people elsewhere have it worse as a change in material circumstances will still register.

I haven't swallowed the permanent line. I'm always careful to use terms like "if" and "may" and acknowledge that you can't entirely trust any source. I'm just exploring the possibility that the people concerned are correct.

Covid is a change of material circumstance. Our govt was aware of everything and did too little too late
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
Apparently France are going to be charging for non-prescribed testing from October. It's going to be rough if people are expected to start paying for various things in order to have access to public life. I mean we've already got people relying on food banks and struggling to pay rent as it is.

What are we supposed to do about France?

Yes, corporate drug behemoths are flocking to the screaming marks, but you still have to try to remain pragmatic

To be vigilant is one thing, catastrophising it another
 

version

Well-known member
I get what you're saying, but that case is far more clear-cut, as loads of non-pricky people were also saying Brexit was a terrible idea, and the density of pricks qas obviously much greater on the pro-Brexit side.

My point is that the loudest people arguing against vaccine passports are also against vaccines per se, and against masks, and against any anti-disease policy whatsoever. They're fundamentalist nutters cast adrift from reality and they have a huge overlap with the far right, to the point of some of them being literal Nazis (Icke, the QAnon lot, etc.).
True enough. They do seem to have the higher concentration of nutters, but you also have to take into account that there's been a concerted effort to group all dissent with the most extreme voices. There are people concerned about this particular vaccine who are treated as cut from the same cloth as the people who reject all vaccines and rant about Satan and "The Illuminati".
 

version

Well-known member
What are we supposed to do about France?

Yes, corporate drug behemoths are flocking to the screaming marks, but you still have to try to remain pragmatic

To be vigilant is one thing, catastrophising it another
We're not supposed to do anything about France. That wasn't why I brought it up. My point was that people are increasingly being nudged and coerced into things and it may happen here too.

I don't think I'm catastrophising. I'm not here claiming such and such is "definitely going to happen" or ranting and swearing. I'm just talking about what I think are valid concerns.
 

version

Well-known member
If we do end up with passports then I hope they're phased out once we're over the worst of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being permanent and we're provided with a bunch of other reasons to keep the system in place, e.g. tailoring it towards immigration more generally to get the right wingers on side.
 

Clinamenic

θερμοδυναμικός καπιταλιστής
Sure. You don't have to buy a smartphone, but you're risking becoming a second-class citizen without one if the people sounding the alarm on this stuff turn out to be correct. You aren't allowed to work, shop for food and all sorts without proof of vaccine in some areas, so if the system's tweaked so that only digital proof is valid then you're stuffed without one.
My last time working as a production assistant gave insight into this, myself being the only one without a smartphone. I had to remember the directions when I was sent on a run, wasn't able to rely on Waze/maps to optimize my route and save a few minutes, wasn't able to join slack channels, etc.

Of course, it was a choice not to have a smartphone. I had gotten rid of it a couple years prior. Currently I still have the flip phone but am not as adamantly against smartphones. Got my dads old one which I use exclusively for crypto stuff that doesn't have web browser alternatives.

But you are right @version. De facto grade-B employee, if not outright second-class citizen.
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
@version How do you counter such outcomes? Closed borders for anything other than tourism (minus the jaded health tourism to access NHS care line) is an old right trope, so absolutely that’s a point of focus - “walling” off possible migration routes from source populations/nations under the guise of facilitating public health. Grim

We have to live with this thing, travel might take more time than a lot of entitled western populations are ready for though (not you personally, societally)
 

version

Well-known member
The travel thing does concern me, but not as much as the potential use of this stuff domestically. That clip of the diners in Paris having police officers wandering around scanning their phones to make sure they're allowed out is pretty unsettling.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
That clip of the diners in Paris having police officers wandering around scanning their phones to make sure they're allowed out is pretty unsettling.
This is the thing I'm torn on. Clearly anything giving the state more authoritarian control over people is bad. At the same time, there would be no need or demand for any of this stuff if everyone stopped being pricks and just got the fucking vaccine.
 

wild greens

Well-known member
The overseas travel aspect is dubious, re the vaccine passport stuff, as the RFID chip has been ubiquitous for quite some time - I'm sure that we're past the point now where anyone has a passport without one?

They 100% could be tracked and utilised as i used to get pulled up every time i went into an airport in a 4/5 year span, though only when flying alone. So i don't buy into the necessity of them for flight and don't actually think they'll last in that regard

I personally don't think they'll come to pass in the UK but it seems like France are going to a huge extreme with it and i don't really see an endgame to that. I can't say it puts me off going there but think its pretty boring anyway so whatever
 

luka

Well-known member
This anecdotal stuff is backed by hard fact: cash payments fell by 35% in 2020 in the UK and five out of six payments are now cashless. In 2019, the Access to Cash review predicted that only one in 10 payments in the UK would be cash within a decade; now, chairman Natalie Ceeney says, “Covid might have accelerated that to next year.” In April, Rishi Sunak announced a joint Treasury-Bank of England taskforce to explore the scope for a central bank digital currency (CBDC) in the UK: it’s intended to provide a sort of official, ultra-secure alternative to bitcoin.

So is that it? Is dirty cash (90% of dollar bills test positive for cocaine residue) over? Covid compounded our suspicions around banknotes – the preserve of drug dealers and tax dodgers – with since-discredited warnings of contagion risk and government advice to retailers to favour contactless payments. Now, given the ease and ubiquity of mobile payment, why seek out an increasingly hard-to-find and grimy ATM, skirting pools of beer or worse, when you have everything you need on your phone?
 

Leo

Well-known member
btw, apparently a big tipoff for arresting that British security guard at the Berlin embassy accused of passing secrets to the Russians was the fact that he had literally no credit card/cashless transactions for much of the year. a red flag that he paying cash for everything, because he was being bribed in cash.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
btw, apparently a big tipoff for arresting that British security guard at the Berlin embassy accused of passing secrets to the Russians was the fact that he had literally no credit card/cashless transactions for much of the year. a red flag that he paying cash for everything, because he was being bribed in cash.
That's a bit of a rookie error, isn't it?
 
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