Racism

[IdleRich]

I find that, well it depends on exactly the circumstance, what your interlocuteur is like, loads of things, but normally there's a way to express your disagreement with that stuff without it becoming too much of a confrontation. Righteous indignation where you're telling someone of generally doesn't work.

Sounds like a reasonable tactic. At least on paper.

 

[thirdform]

friend of a friend of mine went to berlin with a group and they had a big night out, were walking home in the morning and a guy cycles past and shouts the n word at him, laughing hysterically, then cycles off. everyone very shocked and you do still feel that for all the problems in this country, you would probably not get that sort of thing. there's a big difference between uk and europe in that sense i feel

No, no there really isn't, I can tell you of many experiences well into the mid 2000s where me and my parents got called 'wogs', 'ah-raabs', 'terrorists' etc. but I don't want to contribute to a thread full of smug Brits. There is trying to be anti-racist to the best of your ability and doing it in lower case (we are all falible after all, even if we come from an exploited racialised group) and then there is writing patronising hr statements where the occasion doesn't demand it. And it's the latter why literally everyone cannot stand the professorial tone that Brits adopt when it comes to discussing such issues.

The only reason why it seems different is because the conservatives have monopolised the discourse on being anti-immigrant. A lot of people can tell you how labour used us as bait through masterminding CONTEST post-9-11. But the thing is Manchester is way more segregated than London. You should be aware of this (maybe you've even discussed it on here?) the Pakistani community leads a relatively isolated existence to the Brits.

If anyone thinks that in polite society it's not ok to be racist to muslims and black Africans (hell, even punjabi sikhs from lower class and rural backgrounds) without English as their first language or immigrating from a comparitively later generation without being able to lay claim to the black British or British Asian identity then oh boy. I've got news for you.

Being able to make explicit racist statements hasn't been hushed up, they've just been transfered to communities that most people on this forum don't interact with outside of professional life. My family still don't have white mates. Sure, they have white work mates, but actual white friends off the job? Not at all.

 

[thirdform]

I'd be interested to know how people would react to some of the above. The one that sticks out to me was the one about the beach. We were in a cab on our way one at the time. It was me and Liza and a friend of mine from school, not actually an especially close one but we are in touch and he was gonna come through Lisbon so we met up - that sort of feels relevant as it may have affected the amount to which we felt we could rely on each other for a united front, I dunno. Anyway it's a bit of a drive, we were kinda half way there, on the motorway and the guy comes out with that.... what would you do?

Predictably enough we basically did nothing. We were in the back and we all sort of looked at each other and there was big awkward silence. I guess we didn't want an argument, we didn't want to get dumped in the middle of nowhere. We didn't know what to do... ultimately, there's not really much more that I can say except admit that we were just pussies. We pretended not to hear and changed the subject. He clearly knew that he had pissed us off cos at the end as he dropped us off he said it again or some variant on it. Which is probably a perfect example of how our weakness and the way we just did nothing even though we all clearly thought it was wrong emboldened him. Thinking back I feel a bit ashamed, I wish that I could tell you that I righteously brow-beat him into an apology but that would be far from the truth. Sorry. I would like to hear what people think that they would have done, honest assessments of course.

I mean to be fair this is a problem with anglophone influenced culture. In Turkey we have a phrase to shut people up, it's like 'forget about that, you concentrate on the journey.' Noone wants to be told they aren't doing their job properly. But then again, this is what I mean by smug Brits (yes I know Liza is not British but she'd probably understand what I mean) you have to cloak everything in excessive false politeness, especially if you see yourself as above the cockney rabble. It's this snobbery which starts causing existential crises in so many white Brits, they feel as if they've failed the world when really they've not even failed themselves. Which is abject, in a way. Because failing yourself is how you learn to be successful.

So yeah, I'd tell them something to the effect of I didn't pay to hear your political views, and your case of the what-ifs, if you don't mind, very kindly closed.

 

[IdleRich]

So in the UK we are arguing about whether or not golliwogs are racist.

 

[IdleRich]

This statement appeared yesterday and - once again - the right has a party line to follow and it's being repeated as though it were a gospel truth that was always known

Golliwogs are not racist.
The name comes from an Arabic word meaning desert ghost (ghul)
W.O.G.S is an acronym for Working On Government Service.
The dolls were originally made & given as gifts to military personnel by Egyptians whose children played with them.

I know it's totally irrelevant to the question but is that even true? Sounds completely made up...

And yet everyone is now repeating it, it's so weird

What is racist about the phrase:

"Worker on Government Service?"

It's always the far right BNP types arguing that something isn't racist - why don't they ever just own it, say "They're racist and I love em cos I'm racist too"?

Instead they expect us to believe that they are grown men who love playing with one particular type of children's doll - the very one that others seem to think is racist.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think any etymology that depends on a highly unlikely-sounding acronym can be disregarded by default. "Port Out/Starboard Home", "Not On Normal Courtyard Exercise", all that bollocks.

 

[IdleRich]

Obviously it's irrelevant to the use of golliwogs as a symbol of race hate these days - but it sounds particularly spurious. Despite the fact that "Carol" stated it so definitively above. From the way she says it you would think it was something she has absolutely always known to be a gospel truth.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Obviously it's irrelevant to the use of golliwogs as a symbol of race hate these days - but it sounds particularly spurious. Despite the fact that "Carol" stated it so definitively above. From the way she says it you would think it was something she has absolutely always known to be a gospel truth.

No doubt the Woke Mob have expunged all trace of it from the internet, to further their hideously sinister agenda of not being racist.

 

[william_kent]

This statement appeared yesterday and - once again - the right has a party line to follow and it's being repeated as though it were a gospel truth that was always known



I know it's totally irrelevant to the question but is that even true? Sounds completely made up...

And yet everyone is now repeating it, it's so weird



It's always the far right BNP types arguing that something isn't racist - why don't they ever just own it, say "They're racist and I love em cos I'm racist too"?

Instead they expect us to believe that they are grown men who love playing with one particular type of children's doll - the very one that others seem to think is racist.

the origin I've heard in the past from "it's not racist" types ( on the radio ) was "western oriental gentleman"

it is racist in my opinion, the "working" etc acronym is a new one to me, never heard that one before, seems completely made up

 

[IdleRich]

the origin I've heard in the past from "it's not racist" types ( on the radio ) was "western oriental gentleman"

it is racist in my opinion, the "working" etc acronym is a new one to me, never heard that one before, seems completely made up

Yeah I've that explanation for "wog" in general but not specifically for golliwogs. It sounds like total bollocks to me and it's just distraction from how they are used now. This guy who caused all the fuss has been photographed in a BNP t-shirt or similar, he puts these in his pub and wrote on his Twitter "they used to hang em in Mississippi" - I think we can safely assume that they are not toys his civil servant parent sent him from Egypt.

 

[woops]

Yeah I've that explanation for "wog" in general but not specifically for golliwogs. It sounds like total bollocks to me and it's just distraction from how they are used now. This guy who caused all the fuss has been photographed in a BNP t-shirt or similar, he puts these in his pub and wrote on his Twitter "they used to hang em in Mississippi" - I think we can safely assume that they are not toys his civil servant parent sent him from Egypt.

saying that he only wore that t shirt cos it was to hand and not cos he agrees and is a massive racist

 

[Mr. Tea]

saying that he only wore that t shirt cos it was to hand and not cos he agrees and is a massive racist

He only burned those pieces of wood in his front garden to keep himself warm while doing a spot of weeding, and it was entirely accidental that they were attached to make a cross shape...

 

[IdleRich]

saying that he only wore that t shirt cos it was to hand and not cos he agrees and is a massive racist

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "why not own your racism?" - surely it can't make anyone happy creeping around pretending they keep doing these things by accident.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "why not own your racism?" - surely it can't make anyone happy creeping around pretending they keep doing these things by accident.

So they have enough shame and intelligence to realise that their values are fucked up, and to feel bad about having them, but are too pigheaded to think "Maybe a good way to avoid feeling shameful all the time would be to ditch these shameful values and get some non-shameful ones instead."

 

[luka]

i thought since the BNP split with NF it was all public relations racism, soft racism, sort of trick people into being racist, be the acceptable face of racism and sneak in thru the back door. that was the idea wasnt it?

 

[Mr. Tea]

i thought since the BNP split with NF it was all public relations racism, soft racism, sort of trick people into being racist, be the acceptable face of racism and sneak in thru the back door. that was the idea wasnt it?

I think we're talking about a guy who owns a BNP shirt (and may or may not even be a member of the party) rather than an official line from the BNP itself.

 

[luka]

dont follow sorry

 

[IdleRich]

i thought since the BNP split with NF it was all public relations racism, soft racism, sort of trick people into being racist, be the acceptable face of racism and sneak in thru the back door. that was the idea wasnt it?

Yeah I think so.
Also, people denying their racism are surely doing it not cos they realise it's wrong but cos they know there is a line that if they cross in public they will get in trouble.

 

[Mr. Tea]

dont follow sorry

I'm saying the BNP has no control over what some guy in a BNP shirt might have to say about golliwogs.

 

[luka]

lost me sorry.