pattycakes_

Well-known member
Whoever beagle is should probably stop. Not saying it's not funny but it only feeds into the dark side of the D.
 
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pattycakes_

Well-known member
And no one asked you and barty to make people feel involved. Forcing things doesn't work. Eg padraig (u.s) isn't going to post in that thread, sadly.

(ray gun set to reverse psych)
 

luka

Well-known member
Actually I wasn't talking from personal experience. More just watching how the 'playful ribbing' goes down on here. There's a pecking order and it seems as though certain people are allowed to get away with certain things, and then others are dashed against the rocks for basically the same thing. It's like any other social microcosm really. All the stuff we're supposed to grow out of, as adults. You are definitely in the made men of dissensus section, and I think it's gone to your head a bit. And yeah you're right. I'm totally out of touch. I'm a fucking dunce when I compare myself to others on here way younger, but much wiser. The thing is even though those moments of hounding do hurt, and feel real, I do come away from them and think about what has been said and why, believe it or not. I want to evolve.

We had big heads anyway patty tbh. I've talked to you personally and directly about how my ego can get overinflated and I disregard by duty of care towards the others. This is something that I want to get better at. But this is partly why I don't like the idea of sweeping this under the carpet cos we all, I presume, have things we want to get better at and talking about it can be helpful.

I know it can be hurtful and etc cos although I may seem as sensitive as a crocodile I can get agitated and angry and upset and hurt by what happens here too. It can leave splinters. And that's good. It means it means something.
 
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luka

Well-known member
And no one asked you and barty to make people feel involved. Forcing things doesn't work. Eg padraig (u.s) isn't going to post in that thread, sadly.

(ray gun set to reverse psych)

It's our duty to do that. If we don't people feel it's just 'the Luka and Barty show' to quote mvuent and it ends up with people feeling alienated. This is what I learned doing the dematerialisation thread. I had to make people feel noticed and appreciated. Until then they would just attack. So we do need to do that.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
It's our duty to do that. If we don't people feel it's just 'the Luka and Barty show' to quote mvuent and it ends up with people feeling alienated. This is what I learned doing the dematerialisation thread. I had to make people feel noticed and appreciated. Until then they would just attack. So we do need to do that.

I'm not sure that's true. A few weeks ago the two of you were absent and plenty of work got done. Forced always feels forced on an instinctive level. Imo.
 

luka

Well-known member
I don't think it has to feel forced. I don't think it is forced in fact. We do it cos we want to cos that's the way to make the place work. That's what makes it fun. You have to think of it as a unit imo. How to get it firing on all cylinders. I agree it very often has a positive effect when one or both of us disappear for a bit.

We've talked about it amongst ourselves a lot. We repress something that then expresses itself when we go away and leave you in peace.
 

luka

Well-known member
If you see someone at a party (not, as beagle likes pointing out, that I go to parties) who is not involved and is uncomfortable I don't think it's 'forced' to go and talk to them and introduce them to other people etc. I don't think that's forced at all. I think it's good.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
There's a pecking order and it seems as though certain people are allowed to get away with certain things, and then others are dashed against the rocks for basically the same thing. .

that pecking order stuff's a projection i think. me and luke post more because we're unemployable bums. we're more than delighted when anyone joins in. we're all sad we can never get anyone to chat to us. to get other people to espouse big grand theories. that's why we went madly in love with third when he first came on, because we finally had someone to join in. the moment danny l joined in the pop smoke thread was the greatest day of my life.

when someone teases us or takes the piss we don't get upset or berate them or anything. we love it.
 

droid

Beast of Burden
The problem with this attitude is that nothing ever gets talked through and properly dealt with.

Well, what precisely has been solved? As you mention, I raised this a few years back, and its actually gotten worse since then. This neurotic raking over of coals, intense personalisation, constant public discussion of individuals and social dynamics and inability to ignore even the mildest of perceived slights.

Patty is right. Any misbehaviour from certain quarters is downplayed. It's just a tickle, banter, 'teasing'. OTOH criticism going the other way is described as toxic, stupid, indicative of a some grand failure of character, being 'out of step' with the grand scheme and its masters.

This situation reminds me a lot of Mark's 'niceness is evil'. An intellectual project of which its contributors decide its value justifies any behaviour and blinds them to community concerns and their own bad behaviour.

That baked bean thread is an absolute disgrace. Really, nasty, shameful personal attacks. The kind of thing that drives observers away. Third had his part to play but nobody should be treated like that on here, and this is probably the 3rd time he's been abused like this. You don't like something he posts? Ignore it.

This is a community. Any thing that's worth anything thats come from here came from the interaction between people. You can claim to have instigated all sorts of positive things but that does not give you the right to shit on people, and you must also acknowledge the implicit negatives in your approach.

Without the community your project collapses. You think you're a leader? Act like one. Less ego, less nastiness, less martyrdom, less superiority - more empathy, more maturity, more responsibility, more kindness.

And yeah, Im in my ivory tower lecturing you - somebody fucking has to. :love:
 
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sufi

lala
are we still???
this place is only as good as us lot,
rules of thumb from my observations:
  • talking about this place is boring *
  • talking about each other is boring and annoying **
[SUB]and as always to the generalisations there must be exceptions:
* i think the 'what is dissensus for' question is a good un
** the 'so-and-so top 20 of whatnot' threads have sometimes been awesome[/SUB]

  • also please be nice
 

luka

Well-known member
I disagree. Very very strongly. I think people are fascinating and the interactions of people are fascinating. I don't think 'name your favourite cover version' is remotely interesting.
 

luka

Well-known member
I don't think collating news clippings is remotely interesting. I don't think posting YouTube videos is remotely interesting. I think 'personalisation' means treating people as if they are actually people not computer programs or robots or pieces of furniture.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Patty is right. Any misbehaviour from certain quarters is downplayed. It's just a tickle, banter, 'teasing'. OTOH criticism going the other way is described as toxic, stupid, indicative of a some grand failure of character, being 'out of step' with the grand scheme and its masters.
:

the thing is it is tickling and banter and teasing. it is affectionate and light-hearted. those threads about 'willing on catastrophe' or 'quilliette' are fun. they were perceived as egregious insults, but they were intended as playful.

i'm not sure i can think of a time when someone does a fun zing on luke or me and we kick up a fuss about it. yyaldrin once made a joke about me being a pedophile. i didn't get upset about it or attack him for it. luke did a thread claiming i ran a neoliberal podcast. it didn't upset me. version said that i was neo-nazi edward norton from american history x, i didn't mind. beagle is literally a whole account dedicated to insulting me and luke, we haven't had a big upset about it.

i think when people have a word with us in a nice way about something they don't like we don't react badly. we usually apologise and try to amend whatever thing we've done.

so i don't think it is a case of one rule for us and another rule for everyone else.

when words like "toxic" get brought up it's not because someone's made a joke at someone else's expense or calmly given criticism, it's because of something more than that; whether it be unwarranted aggression or a feeling of things being sabotaged or whatever.

the funny thing is that i've had times where i've felt blindsided by both you and patty in terms of feeling aggression's come out of nowhere. i might have misread it or whatever, but can you see how i could easily say to you "oh me and luke can't make the slightest of joke without getting told off, but droid and patty can be cruel and aggressive without anyone batting an eyelid".

i don't know what the solution is. i know when luke made the danny l foreign policy thread i intervened because i thought it might cause a problem, so it's not like me and luke aren't trying. personally i think some uses are wedded to these notions that me and luke are badly behaved or underhandedly unkind and disingenuous and until people get rid of that idea there's going to be an underlying problem.
 
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