Teach me about....

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
What this translates as is 'reinforce my prejudices. Confirm me in thinking this (whatever it is) is a load of rubbish. Multiply examples for me to dismiss.'

We had a thread, listen to this, I think it was called, that was designed to break down this habitual bad faith but it quickly degenerated into wilfulness and mulishness and that exact snook cocking bad faith.

I know how this works cos I have been the guilty party loads of times myself.

How to circumvent this?
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
There's a pleasure in denying someone else the pleasure of letting you in on a pleasure. I think Shiels did a thread on that topic or something like it.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
i don't buy the bad faith angle really. it's normal for people not to like things and when in a situation where they're exposed to said things (such as the forum) to still not like them. i think the bad faith notion stems from an idea that reframing something isn't incredibly rare and incredibly hard. you can do it as an intellectual exercise- so i could in a chin stroking way try to frame rage against the machine as the soundtrack to rebellion- but in the end of the day in my heart of hearts i'm still going to hear it as white boys sniffing each other's foreskins and eating one another's smegma.

so for example (whatever mathew may say) when i say that rakim sounds a bit clunky and limerick-like it's not because i enjoy toying with you or teasing you or whatever. it's a genuine reaction. i was literally born after 36 chambers and illmatic, which are far more advanced than rakim. i intellectually can point to some rakim internal rhyme and appreciate that he was more advanced than his contemporaries and that the music that proceeded him was heavily indebted to him, but that doesn't change the fact that it sounds silly to me instinctually.

same goes for that techno thread. it wasn't a case of going "i'm determined" not to like techno. i just genuinely didn't like.

a good example actuall was the deep house thread. i made that thread expecting to love loads of it. the thread superseded my cognitive bias; it made me want to hang myself even though i was expecting to find loads of new songs i liked.

as far as circumventing any initial dislike for something i wonder if trying to like it on its own terms doesn't work. so with the robo-bumming stuff i think it's impossible for me to think of it as abrasive and tough so i'm not going to get anywhere if i try to. my natural way of hearing that stuff is as cartoonish, so only once i leaned into that instinct did i manage to appreciate it. presumably not in the same way as third does, but notheless i found an angle with which it became palatable.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
My feeling here is that you are putting too much faith in the 'natural' and the 'instinctive'.
 

Corpsey

call me big papa
It's odd (or is it?) that not everyone can like everything. I don't think it has to do with intelligence. Perhaps with a notion of your identity. That definitely plays a part in your musical taste (and your aesthetic taste generally) - am I the sort of person who likes this? And a sense of morality too - is the person who made this someone I want to ally myself with?

Not everybody likes the same food. Perhaps your musical sense is as ingrained in you in some respects as your sense of taste. You could feed me a thousand coconuts and perhaps I'd stop hating them less but I don't think I'd ever really like them. Certainly not as much as I like apples.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
It's odd (or is it?) that not everyone can like everything. I don't think it has to do with intelligence. Perhaps with a notion of your identity. That definitely plays a part in your musical taste (and your aesthetic taste generally) - am I the sort of person who likes this? And a sense of morality too - is the person who made this someone I want to ally myself with?

Not everybody likes the same food. Perhaps your musical sense is as ingrained in you in some respects as your sense of taste. You could feed me a thousand coconuts and perhaps I'd stop hating them less but I don't think I'd ever really like them. Certainly not as much as I like apples.

Your sense of taste is in no way ingrained hence the phrase an acquired taste. But your notion of your identity and the panicked need to protect that image is certainly pivotal
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
The instinctive natural self as a sysytem of knots, blockages, neuroses
 

kumar

Well-known member
well there’s that principle that by applying enough sensitive attention to any old object you can glean all sorts of incredible insights which reveal that that particular old object is exemplary and fascinating in all kinds of ways that seemed obscured before.

with the history of places for instance, you can find out about the murderous past of your shit town and it can illuminate the high street in a different way, occasionally.

then if you tell someone about it they might go oh cool but that doesn’t make it special you could say that about anywhere if you looked couldn’t you. which is part of the point, that its possible to unearth all kinds of synchronious rabbit holes about any place in a way which has more vitality than just a chin stroky framing exercise.

obviously you’re still going to have a hard time convincing anyone that barnet high street has just as much mystical resonance as silbury hill.

and to contrive that kind of insight you’ll have to play the game, knock at the door, its the same with any religious conviction.

or its like you can fall in love with someone and be overwhelmed and caught up in it partly against your will, maybe its a bad time to be getting involved in a relationship, maybe you should really be putting the final touches to your cricket themed garage record etc but part of you might also really be willing yourself to fall in love, because it’ll be a great idea and the meaning of life etc.

in that instance its hard to delineate what a conditioned desire would be versus a natural desire, and i don’t know where you’d draw the line or what it would mean.

loads of people on here are really good at that kind of willed, genuine, contrived knocking at the door when it comes to illuminating music. theres so many highly attuned sensitive and fantastic responses to what are sometimes really mediocre tunes. it mostly comes from people trying to plot the effects of what is in front of them rather than just whether they like it or not, why it was important at the time etc.

it could leave you in this vulnerable state though when you’ve got all these really enticing thoughtful frameworks that have opened up any old funky house record to the point that your personal barometer stops working so well and everything you hear sounds on the verge of meaningless. the music equivalent of going to silbury hill and saying oh reminds me of barnet high street.

but also maybe we’re getting to a point where pop music is more meaningless in lots of ways than its ever been.
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
Who cares if people don't like what you like though? Specially not some over the hill, bitter, public school faux intellectuals with nothing better to do than bash your tastes for fun on a forum
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Who cares if people don't like what you like though? Specially not some over the hill, bitter, public school faux intellectuals with nothing better to do than bash your tastes for fun on a forum

Lol! Calm down old chap! We are trying to have a civilised conversation here!
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
It's not about forcing your own subjectivity on someone else or wanting them to like what you like. It's about working out how to circumvent our own armouring more than anything. How to enchant life as Kumar was saying. All that kind of thing. Not in aid of learning to enjoy Rage Against the Machine though. You have to draw the line somewhere!
 

kumar

Well-known member
has anyone ever seriously tried to convert to a religion? i've never seriously had a go at any structured system like catholicism or tarot or whatever. i might have accidentally had some experiences which might function in a similar way to how a willed belief could illuminate the experiences that might follow the application of that belief.

ie spending enough time kneeling and praying and then getting confirmation that it works in whichever way.

ive never done that but i remember having to write daily for a while and that seeming to yield particular effects in a related way to prayer, even if it was as mundane as just "feeling inspired" or whatever.

youve got the robert anton wilson thing of seriously adopting every religion he could on its own terms and gleaning insights about the nature of belief off the back of that. lots of people here are really good at doing that with music.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
has anyone ever seriously tried to convert to a religion? i've never seriously had a go at any structured system like catholicism or tarot or whatever. i might have accidentally had some experiences which might function in a similar way to how a willed belief could illuminate the experiences that might follow the application of that belief.

ie spending enough time kneeling and praying and then getting confirmation that it works in whichever way.

ive never done that but i remember having to write daily for a while and that seeming to yield particular effects in a related way to prayer, even if it was as mundane as just "feeling inspired" or whatever.

youve got the robert anton wilson thing of seriously adopting every religion he could on its own terms and gleaning insights about the nature of belief off the back of that. lots of people here are really good at doing that with music.

Perhaps we should make that our quarantine project. I will go Muslim cos it will help me with my abstinence vows, Kumar I nominate you for Catholicism. You won't be able to go to mass I suppose but do what you can.
 

catalog

Well-known member
years ago i was helping a guy make a film and the job was to find groups of young muslim lads and hang out with them, write reports for him. i had a good few days, just pissing about, but they also took me to mosque and got me to do all the stuff, all of a sudden i knew loads of people in my area and was getting a lot more hellos. it all stopped when i was really drunk one afternoon with some other friends and went over to them, plus the film thing fell through as well. but yeah, interesting experience
 
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