Retreat: How the Counterculture invented Wellness

luka

Well-known member
nobody cares. the person asking the question doesnt care, matt doesnt care, nobody cares. the premier league is very male centric lol who cares
 

john eden

male pale and stale
One of the interviewees, Joseph Burke, talked about dialectics, how it was all about the “bros,” and there wasn’t any representation of women.

I assume Matt said the Dialectics of Liberation Congress, but this wasn't picked up by the interviewer.

Which was mainly dudes. Emmet Grogan of the Diggers memorably read a Hitler speech and then revealed this to the audience after they had applauded.

A quick google suggests that Susan Sherman and Carolee Schneemann were on the bill.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I think the role of women in the counter culture is an interesting thing to talk about and it is reasonable to ask Matt about it, but it's also fair enough if that wasn't a main focus of his research.
 

luka

Well-known member
People care, but in that particular interview it just feels like going through the motions.
care about what? that every single book that gets published shoehorns a bit about some worthy woman or other into it?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I don't think there's really any argument to be had about the fact that culture, as well as counter culture was incredibly sexist and patriarchal in the 60s and 70s though?

There would be an interesting book about the role that women played - and perhaps the uneven development of women's presence and feminist thought in the different strands of the movements. So there were a bunch of women prominent in anti-nukes stuff and the black panthers for example.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
There are some amazing histories of blokey movements that do centre women though - like the Vermorels book about the Sex Pistols that interviews their mums and has loads of great diary entries by Sophie Richmond who worked for McLaren.
 

luka

Well-known member
thats fine its just the tedious idea that it is compulsory to shoehorn a reference to some woman or other into every book that is inane. theyre probably arent many references to men in books about crochet and thats ok too.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Val Wilmer's "As Serious As Your Life" makes the point that the free jazz dudes were only able to continue with all that malarkey because they had women doing the domestic and support work. Mingus' autobiography is revoltingly candid about his parasitical relationship with women too.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I think with social movements it is easy to fall into the "great man" theory where a few key figures (who are almost always middle class, white and hetero) did all the stuff. This is a problem with history generally.

I'm not saying Matt has done this (I've not read his book) but it's OK for Version and the Quietus to bring it up.
 

luka

Well-known member
you have to sponge off a woman to make art if you are not rich, i agree, thats become an unfortunate neccessity for most.
 

luka

Well-known member
I think with social movements it is easy to fall into the "great man" theory where a few key figures (who are almost always middle class, white and hetero) did all the stuff. This is a problem with history generally.

I'm not saying Matt has done this (I've not read his book) but it's OK for Version to bring it up.
you literally just mentioned free jazz and charles mingus who are not conspicuously white lmao
 

john eden

male pale and stale
you literally just mentioned free jazz and charles mingus who are not conspicuously white lmao
I have. And I did say mainly. Most of those talking heads docs on BBC4 are white dudes.

And what about free jazz now> You'd need to include Derek Bailey and a load of OTO dudes.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
In Style in the technical arts, Gottfried Semper looks at the textile with great promise and historical precedent. In Section 53, he writes of the "loop stitch, or Noeud Coulant: a knot that, if untied, causes the whole system to unravel." In the same section, Semper confesses his ignorance of the subject of crochet but believes strongly that it is a technique of great value as a textile technique and possibly something more.

There are a small number of architects currently interested in the subject of crochet as it relates to architecture. The following publications, explorations and thesis projects can be used as a resource to see how crochet is being used within the capacity of architecture.

 

luka

Well-known member
its ok for men to be interested in their little boys games and look up to the other men who played those games well. its ok for matt to be into a load of old hippy weirdo men and its ok for kit to like men making songs about stabbing men
 
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