IdleRich

IdleRich
If we're gonna have a thread called Viktor Orban I think it should be about him - not why we shouldn't talk about him.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
No don't worry, I don't really think your account has been taken over by one of his secret police seeking to deflect criticism elsewhere.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
I know my toe is on the line of whataboutism here, but the cure is for someone to articulate precisely what they are worried about I guess?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I guess I see three levels of lockdown and emergency powers in some of the countries discussed and so on etc

Portugal- got to be renewed every two weeks by a vote in parliament or else it lapses... a safeguard built in to protect democracy.
UK - powers last for two years unless cancelled (I believe, correct me if wrong) even though when they asked for this they said the virus would be over in a matter of weeks
Hungary - powers last FOREVER

To me there is a clear hierarchy of scariness there.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
I guess I see three levels of lockdown and emergency powers in some of the countries discussed and so on etc

Portugal- got to be renewed every two weeks by a vote in parliament or else it lapses... a safeguard built in to protect democracy.
UK - powers last for two years unless cancelled (I believe, correct me if wrong) even though when they asked for this they said the virus would be over in a matter of weeks
Hungary - powers last FOREVER

To me there is a clear hierarchy of scariness there.
The Hungarian Parliament can reverse it again anytime they want if they vote with the same 2/3 majority they voted it in with. They're not going to, because he has a 2/3 majority. But they could. In practical terms, it makes no difference.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
The Hungarian Parliament can reverse it again anytime they want if they vote with the same 2/3 majority they voted it in with. They're not going to, because he has a 2/3 majority. But they could. In practical terms, it makes no difference.
So kind of like an elective dictatorship type thing? Bit like Trump in that everyone knows that he should have been removed but with his senate majority (which in turn came from a gerrymandered system) it was never gonna happen.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
It depends what you mean by 'everyone'. I can assure you that by no means everybody in the USA thought Trump should be impeached.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
No, I mean that everyone who was paying attention knew that he committed an impeachable offence, and that included the republicans in the senate.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
But regardless, the point is, if the Senate back him (and they will) Trump can get away with anything. In the same way, if 2/3 parliament backs him (and it will) then Oban can be king for life.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
It makes a difference I think... also, what if the vote is delayed for some reason say, does it default to rolling over or does it just end? In Portugal they are worried about that cos they had a dictatorship until 1974.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Right. But it's not like Orban is squeaking by on some technical majority here.
No but that's not at all what I'm saying. In fact it's almost the opposite.
I think the term elective dictatorship was coined when Thatcher had a large majority in the 80s, it was also used when Blair had an even larger one in the 90s. The point is that if you have a large enough majority that you can do almost what you want. Now in the UK, with a massive majority you can do a lot, but there are certain things you can't do - or at least, not easily, you can't change it so that you can stay in power for twenty years for example (maybe you technically could, you would need to use the parliament act to change the parliament act and then use that changed act to change how things work, but it would quite hard and it would have to get through parliament twice and the lords twice and so on). But an elective dictatorship does mean that you can do almost what you want... in the UK.
And to my mind, it seems that in the US if you have someone like Trump who has a majority in the senate and appoints his own head of the DOJ, his own judges and so on, then it turns out that the checks and balances that are supposed to hold the president to account don't work. The results of an elective dictatorship are even worse.
I reckon it looks similar in Hungary. But obviously I don't know. That's what I'm asking. Am I right in saying that last week he needed 4/5 to vote for it and lost but he brought it back this week and with the second attempt only needed 2/3?
 

comelately

Wild Horses
Yes, but he just wanted to make the opposition look unhelpful in a time of crisis.

Yes, Orban is proto-Trump. But the 'rule by decree' isn't the watershed moment people are making it out to be.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
OK, but why not? It could be right? I just fear things when they "could be really bad but the worst thing won't happen" cos lately the worst thing keeps happening. Like if Trump can delay the November election and stay in power that would be frightening I think. Maybe Oban is different, I really don't know much about it so I would like to learn.
 
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