Keir Starmer

Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
craner said:
I don't know how many people here actually spent any time in Labour party constituency meetings, but I've been to a few, in Bethnal Green and Bow, Vauxhall, Cardiff West, Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. BB&B was the worst for this, but in all of them there always a vocal contingent whose definition of left wing politics was dominated by Israel and Palestine. These were precisely the people who had a difficult time keeping a grip on their own purported distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. They were the people who considered Oona King to be the Labour Friends of Israel candidate in 2005, and yet for some reason didn't actually jump ship to Respect. They loved Corbyn. Also, a lot of the Respect people loved Corbyn and joined (or re-joined, or tried to) the Labour Party because of him. That's why the issue got worse and more visible after 2015, not because Jewish members were inventing it. It's not a bad thing at all that these people are ostentatiously ripping up their membership cards in disgust. Good.

Corbyn and his crew couldn't deal with this problem because they knew that by doing so they would be attacking their core supporters, who they agreed with anyway. It was just like Trump and the Proud Boys.
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I think what this is, really, is an illustration of the fact that it's a very bad idea to let a single issue - no matter how righteous or intuitively appealing - become the one absolute moral lens through which to view the entire world. Especially with regards to politics in your own country, when said issue is going on thousands of miles away and involves people with cultural and political traditions other than your own, which you don't have a very good grasp of.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
Leaving aside the debate which is not worth having given everyone's position is a known and fixed quantity I have to say I felt my whole system flood with violence as soon as I saw this discussion. The Corbin thing is still live and still volatile. I'm not above those kind of primal animal responses, reduced to red rage and snarling
 
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luka

luka

Well-known member
I guess it becomes gang warfare red against blue and if someone throws a rock at you you want to throw it back with interest.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
luka said:
I guess it becomes gang warfare red against blue and if someone throws a rock at you you want to throw it back with interest.
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Serious question, not a trick: what is it you actually see in Corbyn? I mean I know you're all for the bodies-strung-up-from-lampposts approach to Sorting Everything Out, but Corbyn absolutely did not represent that. Better regulation of financial services and an increase in taxation on high earners, sure, but it's hardly Leninism. In fact both manifestos Labour put out while he was in charge were regarded as broadly pro-business.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
Broadly speaking I thought it would be really nice if the country went a bit further left and took a Jacinda Arden slightly soppy focus on things like being nice
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
And soppy. I thought that would represent real positive, transformative change, not far short of revolution under the current circumstances
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
After neoliberalism and austerity if the public went you know what fuck you lot we want to be a more caring fuzzier allotment country I would have felt very heartened and optimistic
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
luka said:
Broadly speaking I thought it would be really nice if the country went a bit further left and took a Jacinda Arden slightly soppy focus on things like being nice
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Well that side of Corbyn was certainly welcome and I was initially very enthusiastic about him for that reason. His economic policies were, and remain, popular with most people. But it soon became apparent that he wasn't going to be able to deliver that because there were just too many things about him that made him an unattractive prospect to most voters (including, to be subjective for a moment, to me). He's heavily invested in a lot of fairly fringe positions, especially in terms of world politics, that most people either have little interest in or actively oppose; he's fiercely loyal to his fellow travellers, some of whom are much worse than he is in this regard; and his inherent Brexitynesss put him at odds with about 2/3 of Labour voters, as well as most of the party and its MPs.

He did pretty well in 2017, I'll give him that. But he should definitely have stepped down after that, and I can't forgive him for insisting on hanging on by his fingernails to lead the party into another election that they were inevitable going to lose horribly.
 
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luka

luka

Well-known member
Yeah but ultimately there was a popularity contest between him and serial thug liar cheat corrupt conman Johson and it's upsetting that the nation chose the cheat. Who is now running a predictably unpleasant and corrupt government.
 
yyaldrin

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
is there a realistic option of labour splitting into two fractions? wouldn't this be best for everybody? all they offer you is a false dilemma.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
The coalitions for both sides in a two party state are fractious and and riven with contradictions by necessity. Red team vs blue team. It all seems very silly.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
I'd rather see the left abandon parliamentary politics and gut Johnson like a pig on live television.
 
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