thirdform

Well-known member
Barty says there's no way Starmer wins too. I assumed he would but I'm always wrong about these things

It's easy to go look at the amount of preventable deaths Boris has no chance. And perhaps he doesn't. and longterm the tory party is probably in a bigger decline than labour, which has pretty much disintegrated come the next generation. But a student/activist regeneration only goes so far. A genuine working class party could simply tell the likes of Embery to shut their gob when they talk about labour leaving the ordinary man behind - our record proves otherwise. But part of the reason labour party melts have to self-justify is because they know that the conservative trade union criticisms ring true to them.

And when you have the likes of Len Mcclusky concerned more with british arms deals...
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Didn't realise you were so into the esoterica of parliamentary politics tbh
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Looks that way doesn't it. Imagine if you could merge him with Stan. Plug the third database into Stans futurology machine.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
You'd be surprised at how popular Boris still is.
I'm not sure about that. He's arguably still much more popular than he should be, but his overall approval was on nearly -20 points just before Christmas:


Maybe it's massively recovered since then because hurrah, Brexit, but I doubt it's closed a 20-point gap or will last long, in any case.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Well hang on, he did this loads last year - quizzing Johnson on everything he said, pointing out all the lies, the broken promises, all of that - and the response I saw from a lot of people on the left, including here, was "That's just Westminster politics, it's not relevant to the real world, what is he actually doing???"

To which the answer is probably "not a lot", but what is he actually able to do? What, in concrete terms, would Corbyn be able to do now if he were still LOTO, that Starmer is failing to do? The government has such a big majority it can rule effectively as a parliamentary dictatorship. In the absence of something so controversial it causes a massive rebellion among Tory MPs, Boris Johnson can do (or refuse to do) more or less anything he likes, his party goes along with it, and that's that.
He did well in PMQs, but that is just Westminster politics. Nobody really gives a toss about PMQs except media hacks.

What should he have been doing? Criticizing the government on every possible occasion. Getting the entire shadow cabinet to criticize the government on every possible occasion. Setting out a proper alternative strategy. Not just saying stupid shit like we must keep schools and universities open when they should be closing. Not just doing well in PMQs and then supporting the government's latest balls-up in the "national interest", which it clearly isn't.

And it's not the case that he can't do anything because the Tories have a huge majority. No, he can't win any votes in parliament, but this isn't about votes in parliament. It's about putting the pressure on, so it has to be high profile national campaign based. Boris Johnson hasn't got a clue what he's doing and folds to concerted pressure. If Marcus Rashford can do it...
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
He did well in PMQs, but that is just Westminster politics. Nobody really gives a toss about PMQs except media hacks.

What should he have been doing? Criticizing the government on every possible occasion. Getting the entire shadow cabinet to criticize the government on every possible occasion. Setting out a proper alternative strategy. Not just saying stupid shit like we must keep schools and universities open when they should be closing. Not just doing well in PMQs and then supporting the government's latest balls-up in the "national interest", which it clearly isn't.

And it's not the case that he can't do anything because the Tories have a huge majority. No, he can't win any votes in parliament, but this isn't about votes in parliament. It's about putting the pressure on, so it has to be high profile national campaign based. Boris Johnson hasn't got a clue what he's doing and folds to concerted pressure. If Marcus Rashford can do it...
You're taking for granted that schools and universities should shut, though, and I'm not sure that's the case. Kids have had enough disruption to their education already, it's massively exacerbated the already severe class differential in achievement and parents have been going nuts wondering how they're meant to provide full time education and childcare while also WFH.

The purpose of the Opposition is to oppose bad policies, or at least policies it disagrees with, not to oppose everything for the sake of it.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Marcus Rashford can precisely speak his mind because his wage packet does not depend on capital P politics.

It's a job like anything else. Not sure why you would expect people to adhere to some moral standards when their current means of survival necessitates exactly the opposite.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I love Third. Everything he says is like a bracing downpour of shrapnel falling out of the sky. It's like taking a shower beneath a Daisy Cutter.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
You're taking for granted that schools and universities should shut, though, and I'm not sure that's the case. Kids have had enough disruption to their education already, it's massively exacerbated the already severe class differential in achievement and parents have been going nuts wondering how they're meant to provide full time education and childcare while also WFH.

The purpose of the Opposition is to oppose bad policies, or at least policies it disagrees with, not to oppose everything for the sake of it.

Everything that facilitates the spread of a disease in a pandemic is a bad policy.

Oh, but if we do that, then that bad thing might happen, so we don't want to do that but, oh, it turns out we have to do that anyway, but later, when the situation is much worse.

Repeat countless times.

Result: the pandemic is as bad as it ever was; and all the bad things you didn't want to happen are happening anyway, worse, and for longer.

I mean this is just completely obvious by now, surely?
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Marcus Rashford can precisely speak his mind because his wage packet does not depend on capital P politics.

It's a job like anything else. Not sure why you would expect people to adhere to some moral standards when their current means of survival necessitates exactly the opposite.

I can't tell whether that's directed at me or not. Mentioning Marcus Rashford seems to indicate yes. But the rest makes no sense when talking about Keir Starmer. He doesn't need his political paypacket to survive.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
I can't tell whether that's directed at me or not. Mentioning Marcus Rashford seems to indicate yes. But the rest makes no sense when talking about Keir Starmer. He doesn't need his political paypacket to survive.

Only bare survival though. This has been the problem with the left over the past 10 years. They don't realise how political culture warring coheres social status. If Starmer abstains from politics he'll just go back to being a lawyer noone gives a foggiest about.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
You need to understand first the hollowed out anti-Machiavellianism that pervades both UK and US politics. Starmer has terrible political instincts. He has no way of opposing the right wing because he's *precisely* not that type of politician. He's so tepid he'll put anyone jacked up on crystal meth to sleep. Even worse Charisma than JC, and that's saying something. Politics is showmanship, and labour lack that in droves because they believe half their shit. The tories don't, which is why they are able to act.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
There's a reason why no Corbyn = no Starmer as labour leader. He strangled himself there, he was far too loyal to the plp. He was not like a bernie, a semi-firebrand coming in, inverting its trajectory. Bernie himself resigned. Corbyn was defeated by his own electorate. It's all the same public school mannerisms in British politics, from top to bottom. This semi-feudal idea that we must be deferent to our rulers, that deference should always and at all times be part of British political life.

I thought the Miliband years would have educated the labour left, but sadly it hasn't.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
Everything that facilitates the spread of a disease in a pandemic is a bad policy.

Oh, but if we do that, then that bad thing might happen, so we don't want to do that but, oh, it turns out we have to do that anyway, but later, when the situation is much worse.

Repeat countless times.

Result: the pandemic is as bad as it ever was; and all the bad things you didn't want to happen are happening anyway, worse, and for longer.

I mean this is just completely obvious by now, surely?
Right, but at what cost? Lockdowns have massive negative consequences - economically and in terms of both physical and mental health, for everyone. Those have to be weighed against any projected saving in covid-19 infections.

I am in no way defending the government here. They have fucked up pretty much everything they could conceivably have fucked up.
 
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