mixed_biscuits
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YouGov are not reliable
Keir Starmer
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
True enough. They usually underestimate the Conservative vote.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
They've predicted the vote share in general elections over the last couple of decades to within a fairly small margin each time, AFAIR, with the exception of 2017, when Labour did better than (I think) every major polling organization predicted. But yeah, they have a (slight) tendency to underestimate Tory votes/overestimate Labour votes.
Approval ratings are a different thing, because then you can only compare an opinion poll to other opinion polls, and there is never a definitive "right" answer.
Approval ratings are a different thing, because then you can only compare an opinion poll to other opinion polls, and there is never a definitive "right" answer.
"You see, we were right all along"
IdleRich
IdleRich
Not wishing to get into Corbyn Vs Starmer, I actually sympathize with them both to the extent that somehow this incompetent, dishonest and corrupt government seems impervious to any consequences of their actions.
However lacklustre KS is it makes no sense to me that anyone who is paying the slightest bit of attention could vote for these people who are robbing them and killing them in plain sight.
But given that nothing that they do, however bad, puts people off, what can Labour do? And why is it like that?
However lacklustre KS is it makes no sense to me that anyone who is paying the slightest bit of attention could vote for these people who are robbing them and killing them in plain sight.
But given that nothing that they do, however bad, puts people off, what can Labour do? And why is it like that?
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
Not so much. It's more that, with Keith being such a useless centrist bastard, there's a grim pleasure to be had from polls like that, now that I'm no longer in the Labour Party anyway.
the problem is that Starmer's Labour aren't holding them accountable. There are 120,000 people dead from the virus which is a huge number that could and should have been prevented, and the economy hasn't even been saved at the expense of human lives. Labour should be attacking them on moral grounds and competency grounds with ease. Even with a hostile press, they could send the message through their digital channels. But they've actively chose to support the Government. So if even your enemies aren't willing to challenge you, where would you expect any pressure to come from, who is left to to make you look bad?
"We need not to listen to people who lost their seats" is the obvious riposte there.
The focus on how shit Starmer is serves to distract from the fact that Pidcok and others saddled Labour with a 80 seat disadvantage. No wonder if it's fucking hard for him. But yeah, more of the same is always the answer. The same preaching sanctimonious shit that is actually a huge turn off to the electorate. There's been absolutely zero sign for any of the Left of their complicity in that terrible result (apart from McDonnell who is the only one who has a brain). There's been no sign that any of them want to show that they're listening. For all Starmer's faults at least that's what he's attempting to do.
I thought Starmer did well on the budget, especially bearing in mind he'll probably be facing Rishi at the next election. 4 years? 3 years now? Is a fucking long time.
The focus on how shit Starmer is serves to distract from the fact that Pidcok and others saddled Labour with a 80 seat disadvantage. No wonder if it's fucking hard for him. But yeah, more of the same is always the answer. The same preaching sanctimonious shit that is actually a huge turn off to the electorate. There's been absolutely zero sign for any of the Left of their complicity in that terrible result (apart from McDonnell who is the only one who has a brain). There's been no sign that any of them want to show that they're listening. For all Starmer's faults at least that's what he's attempting to do.
I thought Starmer did well on the budget, especially bearing in mind he'll probably be facing Rishi at the next election. 4 years? 3 years now? Is a fucking long time.
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All you will get from that is a load of angry people on Twitter. Kinda what we've got now.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
This is the attitude I don't understand. I was initially quite enthusiastic about Corbyn but found myself firmly in the anti-Corbyn camp after the 2017 election, in large part because it was obvious by that time that Labour didn't stand a chance of winning for as long as he remained leader. So while it was entirely predictable that Labour were going to get slaughtered in the following election, I didn't actually take any pleasure (grim or otherwise) about having been "right" that it was going to happen.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I think they should be holding them to account, if only cos they're doing bad stuff and it's the right thing to do... but what if that has little effect on voting intentions? Which is what I suspect sadly.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
This is not about being right. There isn't any right in this. Keith was supposed to unite the party, combining progressive policies with competence. Instead, he's tried to rely solely on not being Corbyn, returned Labour to failed centrist managerial bollocks and "supported the government". Yes, I do take a grim pleasure in polls which say, effectively, "fuck off with that useless shit, you useless fucker".
As for the 2019 election, don't backdate your "predictable" defeat too far. Certainly not to 2017 or even into 2018 when Labour was sitting high in the polls. Later on, after the entire establishment (including the Labour right) had been to work on Corbyn, anti-semitism, and Brexit... sure, well done. I was never quite so pessimistic, though how I squared that with also thinking that Labour would get wiped out in the Red Wall I don't know.
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subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
That's a purely centrist take on the election result, that it was all the fault of the left who must be driven back to the margins of the party. One: It's factional bullshit, unsupported by post-election analysis. Two: as John said above: How's it working out for you?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Sure, Labour were doing relatively OK in the polls while the Tories were also deeply unpopular, with an incumbent PM who was almost universally hated both by her own party and by most Tory voters. Then Johnson became party leader - OK, that was in the summer of 2019, but it was still well before the election - and given his support among the hardcore Brexit base in the Tory shires, Labour's fate was sealed at that point. Corbyn could have stepped down and let someone else lead the party into the next election, and even if that would still probably have resulted in a defeat, it would almost certainly have been a less crushing one - bear in mind that Corbyn's personal approval at one point reached -60%, the lowest of any UK party leader ever - and would surely have helped some part of the Corbynist project be salvaged.
And come on, Corbyn was useless on both Brexit and anti-Semitism.
subvert47
I don't fight, I run away
I'd say that the left didn't work for "other reasons", not because it was left. A lot of people voted for Starmer in the hope that he would eliminate those "other reasons". Instead, he's just tried to eliminate the left.