Cancellations

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
so basically sexual assault is something that is going happen, it's not anything to do with ppl taking advantage of certain situations
that's so far from what anyone said that's it hard not to feel it's disingenuous

of course people take advantage of situations, in every type of action in every walk of life

the question, where is there evidence of people taking advantage of this specific situation for this specific purpose
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
as any random males
lol come on man you're not serious, the whole crux of the matter is "any random males" is a fantasy of bigots

you can't be some cryptic master of philosophy and then also say things like this

unless you're drunk rn, which possibility I concede
 

boxedjoy

Well-known member
People aren't raped because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, they are raped because somebody raped them. You might as well say that women in short skirts are asking for it.
 

constant escape

winter withered, warm
"Don't bother trying to change their minds, they're old and set in their ways" = "they've lived through major social changes and instead of wanting to help people live better and fairer lives they've chose to double down on reprehensible positions"

If a person is resistant to developing their own sense of empathy and compassion then... what are they doing, really?
...Tough to argue you there, but I can try. Not sure if I can avoid sounding condescending to them, though. Also not sure if I can avoid overly abstract stuff, which is just my preferred way into a lot of this.

I think it boils down to some kind of pre-conscious disgust/stabilization mechanisms. I do feel compelled to get that abstract when thinking about it - because otherwise, like you, I see no explanation for it other than that they are worse at empathizing.

At a certain level of abstraction, changing minds is a borderline magical operation, depending on definitions.

By "stabilization" I mean keeping the system healthy and stable, avoiding risky operations that could jeopardize the integrity of the system - playing it conservatively. There is clearly a necessity to this, in all systems, to an extent - the debate is over where the line should be drawn, no?

If we are trying to change minds to be more empathic and considerate - which is largely what I am trying to do, don't want to speak for anyone else - I think the best way to do it is to start from the foundation of their system, so to speak. This is arguably easier for me, seeing as I demographically align with many of the opponents to the socially progressive trends in question.

I think one of the central questions is: how much ear are you willing to lend to effectively, if even unintentionally, bigoted voices, if it could make a difference in changing their mind? Could be wishful thinking, but then again I've felt this work in conversation.

But to more directly answer your question, what are they doing: I think they are going about their lives in as parochial a fashion as they can get away with, which isn't wrong in and of itself. What is wrong, to us at least, is that by going about life like this, they are willingly or unwillingly sustaining norms that clearly don't suit the parochial lives of other demographics.

A couple years ago I brought up feminism, broadly, to a roommate of mine who had been conditioned by a far more conservative environment than I had, and he asked, rather honestly, "Why should I care?".

Not that that should be surprising to us, but I do think it is a sentiment that needs to be openly and vulnerably voiced in order to be informed. If that question isn't given room to develop, it festers underneath layers of resentment and confusion, and they "double down on reprehensible positions", no?

And @boxedjoy regarding your point, I agree that it doesn't give a free pass. But what lies outside the binary of free pass / cancel? Is there anything beyond it? Or am I oversimplifying it?

And your point about adhering to bathroom signage is a clear one, one that I hadn't considered.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
where is this subset of cisgendered men who are sexual predators but who also respect bathroom signage and are willing to go through the trouble of getting a gender recognition certificate - which isn't something you can just get, you have to have proof you've lived as that gender for some period of time, medical records, etc - in order to gain access to women's bathrooms to sexually assault people?

absent that, the argument has to be that trans women who haven't had SRS are going to rape cis women and/or children in a women's bathrooms because...they want to and can? which, again, where's the evidence of this as a widespread problem, given that many trans women already use women's bathrooms and seem to manage not to rape anyone.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
evidence for what?
jesus christ how drunk are you. it's three posts up. the evidence for any of this.

"where is this subset of cisgendered men who are sexual predators but who also respect bathroom signage and are willing to go through the trouble of getting a gender recognition certificate - which isn't something you can just get, you have to have proof you've lived as that gender for some period of time, medical records, etc - in order to gain access to women's bathrooms to sexually assault people?

absent that, the argument has to be that trans women who haven't had SRS are going to rape cis women and/or children in a women's bathrooms because...they want to and can? which, again, where's the evidence of this as a widespread problem, given that many trans women already use women's bathrooms and seem to manage not to rape anyone."
 
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